Curiosity Over Conflict: How to Heal Relationships with JJ Brake (Pt. 1)

In Part 1 of this moving conversation, Cesar and Foster sit down with Foster’s longtime therapist, JJ Brake, to explore what truly makes relationships thrive. JJ is an expert in couples therapy, parent education, and Internal Family Systems (IFS), and shares the three keys to lasting connection. She breaks down how to navigate conflict, communicate courageously, and offers tangible tools for more mindful relationships.

In this episode they explore: 

• The 3 relationship skills that every couple should know
• Why context doesn’t matter in conflict and what to focus on instead
• The power of the U-turn: how to take ownership of your triggers and communicate from the heart
• Why “I’m sorry” often misses the mark and what real accountability sounds like
• The surprising emotional truth behind your child’s “tantrums”

To connect with JJ Brake, visit jjbrake.com. Her app Unblend.me is the first platform designed for between-session mental wellness. Try it for free now! 

Also mentioned:

• Episode 7: The Eating Habits We Didn’t Choose
• Episode 14: What We Learned in Therapy
• The Gottman Method
• Intimacy From The Inside Out
• Non-Violent Communication
• Internal Family Systems
• Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn
• The Sound Relationship House

You can also watch the episodes on YouTube.

If you enjoyed this episode, take a moment to follow Beauty in the Break on your favorite podcast app and leave a review—it really helps!

Reach out to the show—send an email to beautyinthebreakpod@gmail.com and be sure to follow on Instagram. 

Cesar Cardona:

• Attend his upcoming speaking engagements
• Listen to music from Cesar + The Clew on Apple Music and Spotify
• Receive his monthly newsletter Insights That Matter

Foster Wilson:

• Buy her poetry book Afternoon Abundance
• Learn about her postpartum services
• Receive her monthly newsletter Foster’s Village

Created & Hosted by: Cesar Cardona and Foster Wilson

Executive Producer: Glenn Milley

Special Guest: JJ Brake

This episode is brought to you by Arlene Thornton & Associates

Transcript

What is one thing you want to tell couples that could help them see each other better?

Just one?

I'm allergic to I'm sorry's. They have been abused so heartily.

Listening is far more difficult than we know it to be.

It kind of breaks my heart sometimes how difficult it is for people to operate

because of all of this internal noise and narratives that get in our own way.

Hello and welcome to Beauty in the Break. I'm Foster.

And I'm Cesar.

This is the podcast where we explore the moments that break us open and how we find beauty on the other side.

So whatever you're carrying today, you don't have to carry it alone. We are here with you.

Thanks for being here and enjoy the show.

Hello beloved and welcome back to another episode of Beauty in the Break.

Oh my goodness, you are in for such a treat today.

Today we have brought on as our guest my personal therapist of over 10 years, JJ Brake.

She is like the raddest human being I know and she is also deeply, deeply insightful.

We decided to break it into two parts.

So today you'll hear part one and JJ is going to just dish about relationships, your partner, your children.

She's just going to help you make your relationships stronger, solve conflict, and navigate all of those challenges in such a real and grounded way.

She's also going to break down for us internal family systems, which I mentioned in our episode called What We Learned in Therapy.

She touches on neurodiversity and ADHD and of course we talk about birth and parenting.

So settle in and enjoy this episode.

And please stay tuned for part two because JJ is actually going to lead Cesar and I through a mini couples session where we actually talk about conflict we have and how to work through it.

And she's going to open up to us about her own personal trials, including losing her family's home in the Altadena fires here in Los Angeles.

Now part one with JJ Brake.

Let's get into it.

Welcome back everybody to another episode of Beauty in the Break.

I am so excited that you're here today.

Before we start this episode, I just have to say a small disclaimer, a quick reminder that this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

It is not therapy and it is definitely not a replacement for working with a licensed mental health professional.

All that being said, I have an incredible guest today that is actually my former personal therapist.

This woman, I'm going to get emotional because this woman has made my life possible and has been witness to the last 10 years of my life in transition.

She became a part of my life right after I lost my son wild and helped me through the grief and the loss and the subsequent pregnancy and so much of my transformation over the last 10 years.

She has been witness to, and I am ever so grateful that she is joining us here today.

It is absolutely spectacularly special and magical to have her here today.

JJ Brake is a licensed marriage and family therapist.

She's trained in gotman method intimacy from the inside out and is a certified internal family systems therapist.

She is also certified in nonviolent communication as a parent educator, which I think is very important.

She now specializes in working solely with couples with a focus on nonviolent communication and courageous communication.

JJ, welcome to the show.

Welcome to the show.

Hi.

I'm already crying.

Boy, it didn't take long.

It's a good start.

Open heart.

Open heart.

Yeah.

It's lovely to be here.

I feel incredibly honored to be here with you guys.

We're honored you said yes to being on the show with us.

Thanks.

It's really special because I feel super selfish in this moment because I'm like, JJ, on top of being such an incredible therapist to me,

is also just like such a rad, cool person.

And I am like incredibly interested in her and her life and what she's been through.

And she's going to share some of that with us today, as well as all of the wisdom that she has working with couples and focusing on relationships and how vital they are to all of us.

And I know that JJ has seen me through the ups and downs of marriage and divorce and dating and relationships that were sour for me and finally finding my person.

And that has been, although we were not working together in the form of couples of a couple, that has been so incredibly validating to have somebody who knew all of what was going on with me.

Because for me, relationships are of the utmost importance in my life.

All of my relationships and in particular my romantic relationship.

So thank you.

Thanks for being here and being willing to talk to us.

I'm so excited.

The nerd in me makes me really excited to know that the show is Beauty and the Break.

Your last name is Brake.

I know.

Come on.

I really, I thought the show was about me at first, but obviously.

Beauty and the JJ Brake those mental traumas.

Like, come on.

A whole show just for that.

It's very exciting.

So what is one thing you want to tell couples right now listening that could help them see each other better?

Just one?

Just one.

Can I?

Maybe two.

Okay, if there's three, would that be a terrible thing?

If I had to say there's one thing that's really important, I think it's curiosity.

Genuine curiosity is a skill, actually.

The ability to have curiosity about your partner without an agenda, without anything getting in the way.

So it's one thing when you're curious about your partner and you're like, so what are you doing?

And when you say, what are you doing?

And you've got an agenda because you're a little annoyed with what they're doing.

That's not genuine curiosity.

Genuine curiosity is, I want to know what's happening in your world.

What are you doing right now?

If I could gift anybody, couples, maybe the world, genuine curiosity.

I have said long, long ago for 20 plus years, all my parent education classes, take away curiosity.

If there's one thing you can take away, be curious about your kids.

Instill curiosity in your kids.

Have curiosity for your partner.

Have curiosity for the trees.

Have curiosity.

That would be my, I'd say, number one.

That's fantastic.

Can I say the other two or should I stop there?

You can totally say the other two.

The other two would be context doesn't matter.

Couples will get lost in the slog of, you know, you said this, but I didn't say that, but you said this.

And then that happened.

And when you did this and, and just to also name it that, you know, the longer they've been together,

the more there's micro emotions and micro things that they do rolling an eye.

That means a million things to their partner.

The context doesn't matter.

The emotional value, the underbelly of the emotional experience is everything.

So it's a skill.

How do you peel away the feeling of like, yes, but it didn't go like that or you're wrong.

And just say, oh, I see you're in pain.

If we could, if I could teach that skill with being curious, boy, boy.

And the last one, can I say just the last one?

Absolutely.

Please.

Slow it down.

We go too fast.

It, I spend, I feel like 90% of the time with my clients saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down.

Slow it down.

Cause these things happen so fast.

In a second, somebody can say, do anything.

And we're off, we're off.

Or we get activated.

We get, you know, angry, dysregulated so quickly.

If we can just slow it down.

I mean, imagine your partner goes, I'm upset.

Okay.

Give me a minute.

Let me just, let me just take in what you're saying.

Cause I'd like to be curious.

It's hard to do right now.

Hold on.

How different that would be.

Absolutely.

Seldom are there things that are urgent in this world.

Yes.

Three things maybe at most.

Car accident.

Injury in the house.

Traffic.

Driving.

For the most part, we have time.

Yeah.

It is not that serious.

Yeah.

What's more is that I've been working with clients for 10 years.

And I'll either have a client, married couples I'll train together.

Or I'll have a client that I train one and then the other one completely separate.

Interesting.

Right.

Yeah.

That's a physical trainer.

Yeah.

And so I get the situation of what happened in their scenario and I get the different perspective

of both of them.

Yes.

And sometimes those clients are an hour after each other.

Wow.

Just eight.

I got one at 11 and I got the next one at 12 and I'll get the entire weekend that they

experienced together that they're not getting along and it is a completely different story

on top of that.

Yes.

It's nuts.

It's so crazy, right?

And it reminds me of like when I'm with her, like, hang on, guaranteed you saw something

wrong here, Cesar.

And then give yourself space.

Give it a moment.

You don't have to go through all of this stuff.

Lastly, because finally I get to tell somebody about, I'm not a therapist, but I spend so much

time with people and they give me all their stuff, their life, their vulnerabilities.

And I see them for years.

Sometimes I'll see them pass by each other.

So I'm thinking of one couple in particular.

One will ask a question.

The other one will just start saying, well, I need to.

And then the one asking the question will just say, okay, I got it.

I got it.

Okay.

Okay.

I got it.

I got it.

I'm like, damn.

You guys are holding on to a lot of stuff.

You're not talking about lawn.

You're talking about something else from 1974.

Like, holy mackerel.

Yeah.

And you see how fast that happens, you know, like just in that moment.

And there's not even the full complete sentences.

And we already, I know what you mean.

And there's a wisdom in couples therapy that it is not about where you squeeze the toothpaste.

It's so frustrating.

Squeeze it from the middle.

No, squeeze it from the bottom.

It's actually not about that.

Guaranteed.

It's about a need.

It's about an unmet need.

It is almost always.

And I don't want to blanket statement and say forever.

Yes.

No.

Immediately.

Except nine times out of 10.

I won't say, I want to say 9.9 times out of 10.

It's about something so much deeper.

A need.

I need a sense of safety.

I need a sense of control.

I need a sense of reliability that you'll squeeze the toothpaste in the same place because

it makes me feel like you see me.

Oh, that's precious.

I need to be seen.

Yes.

From both parts, I need to be seen for who I am and what I need and what I care about and

what's my value.

And do you see me?

Because this person that we've chosen to be in the most vital role of our life, the most

important decision you'll ever make in your life is the person you partner with.

They're your mirror for everything.

And so if part of you doesn't exist, they're not seeing it.

How do you know you exist?

Yeah.

What is it they say about kids?

They just want to know that they're real and that they matter or something, right?

They just want to know that you see me.

And if I can't expect it of my partner, then who can I expect it of really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's true.

You recap those three just for me.

Just bop, bop, bop.

Curiosity, first and foremost.

Context doesn't matter.

And slow it down.

Nice.

Beautiful.

Well said.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I have always wanted to ask you this question.

How did you get to what you do now?

Because actually, you have a big history of work life behind you.

Sign language is where it all started for me.

Really?

Because when I had kids, I have three kids and my oldest is now 21.

My middle is 19.

My youngest will be 16.

When they were little and first born, I knew that kids couldn't communicate well.

And I had read that sign language is the best way to do it.

And knowing me, I was like, you know what?

I'm going to learn all of it.

So I went to school to learn sign language.

And then I found parenting classes when my son was four months old through the Maple Center.

Then I started doing parenting classes.

Then I started coupling it with sign language.

And then as I was doing these parenting classes, I started to learn that we are kind of doing it all wrong.

Of how we see our children.

I was very attachment-based with my kids.

Breastfeeding.

Sleeping with them.

Kind of all the things that get a lot of hype.

I was too.

It's right or wrong.

Whatever.

And so I started taking classes at what is now called the Echo Center.

It had a very long, complicated name now.

It's called the Echo Center.

When my kid, my oldest was two and a half.

I started at a preschool.

And then I realized, oh, this preschool is called the Garden Nursery School.

I just want to name it because they're the most incredible school.

I'm sure there are other incredible schools.

And it's not to negate other ones.

They sit inside of the philosophy I'm super aligned with.

Play-based.

All about nonviolent communication on the ground with these kids.

So when my kids started going there, I started saying, geez, I would like to teach the parent education classes there.

Then I started teaching parent education.

Then I got certified with parent education.

And then I was still doing sign language with kids, particularly when they're nonverbal.

They have delayed speech.

Then I realized, you know what?

I want to be a teacher.

So then I went back to school for early childhood education.

And then I started doing early childhood education.

Then I became a teacher on the yard at the preschool.

And then I realized, oh, my gosh, we're doing birth all wrong.

You know what I'm going to do?

I am going to.

All of my children, by the way, were born at home.

So I was really close with midwives through Graceful, which is no more.

I don't know if you knew that.

That was the part of the conversation where I should get up and leave you.

I don't know if you got tired dialogue because you said that.

And I felt you like, just like, radiate with thrill.

Because we met through my midwife, actually.

Yes.

Right.

So I started doing birth education classes because I thought early childhood, early, early childhood,

if I can start educating the parents about what to do with their child from birth, then we can really have an impact on the way this family grows and changes.

And then, as I was teaching parent education classes and birthing classes, I realized that, oh, my God, these people are basically needing therapy.

Which I imagine is something you feel, Susan, too.

Like, you're working with people and they share things.

Constantly.

Especially when they're in the midst of something big.

It's raising a kid is no joke.

It's really hard.

There's a lot of come-to-Jesus moments, like, what kind of parent am I going to be?

What kind of co-parenting are we going to do?

And I was not getting paid enough money to do this parent education stuff.

Right.

I turned to my husband.

I was like, I'm basically doing therapy.

He was like, babe, you should go to grad school.

And I was like, you know what?

You're right.

And so I went to grad school and then I started doing therapy.

And then I fell in love with, fell in love with working with couples.

It is my passion.

It is my every day I wake up and I never know what my day is going to bring because I never know what somebody might be going through.

And that curiosity piece, every day I walk in there and I'm like, what's going on, guys?

What are we going to learn today?

Yeah.

So that was the crazy journey that led me all to this.

I love that because you have all this experience with, particularly with young families.

Yeah.

All of it from the start.

I love that.

What is it about working with couples that you find so exciting?

Honestly, doing individual work while I love it was just not exciting for me.

No.

Working with couples, I never feel tired.

I never feel drained.

I am constantly on my toes.

I'm an incredibly active person.

I have to move.

And I'm in a couple.

I mean, I get sweaty pits.

I might have sweaty pits now.

I know that it's really good if I've got like, woof, my adrenaline's going.

Let me just calm down for a second.

Let me be here with you.

The whole thing keeps me so present working with couples.

You're not just working with one person's system.

You're working with two.

And not just two systems, but the system that they're creating together.

And how do you pull that apart granularly, piece by piece, to look at it and analyze it?

And let me stop you for a second.

Let me just think about what that meant to you, that you felt impacted.

And that made you say this to them, that they felt impacted.

And now I'm tracking the sequence.

And now I'm teaching them all this communication I learned long ago.

It's not unlike sign language, taking it back to the beginning.

Because when you roll your eyes, that means something.

When you have a look on your face.

I can't tell you how many couples I work with.

And they're like, oh, you've got that look on your face.

It means something.

It's communication.

Did you know that communication doesn't start with language?

It starts with looking at somebody.

We, in nanoseconds, make eye contact first.

And it's like a silent, implicit permission that I get to say something.

And then we make eye contact.

And then we say, oh, look, okay.

So now I can begin.

Communication happens all over our bodies.

That's why I like working with couples.

That's fascinating.

Carl Jung calls that the third thing.

Whatever they're building is the third thing, right?

But also, just knowing you by way of Foster and then sitting here with you as well, you

are very deeply intellectual.

You're very quick.

Yeah.

Which sounds to me like I'm thinking of that bell curve where people are either understimulated

or overstimulated.

But if you need something that's just enough of a push for you to be stimulated at the top

of that bell curve, where perhaps, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth here, perhaps

working with one person is not at the top of that bell curve.

Perhaps working with two people, their own backgrounds, and the third thing that they bring up is exactly

what you need because it just gives you the right amount with your brilliance.

Oh, okay.

Thank you.

That's what it sounds like to me at least.

Like we feel more fulfilled in our lives when we are doing a multitude of things.

To not do something is ridiculous for both of us.

And we like that sort of juggle.

So it just sounds like you found that version for your own self.

By the way, I got nothing but Alice in Wonderland vibes when you were talking about all of the

things you went and followed the white rabbit through the tunnel and found all of the stuff

and went to the school and this and that's the Mad Hatter.

And then you went to the dinner.

And all I kept thinking, I was like, man, she just followed that white rabbit all the way down to the tunnel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you talk about communication, you talk about nonviolent communication.

You also talk about courageous communication.

What does that mean?

I'm not familiar with that phrase.

So courageous communication is a component inside of IFIO, which is intimacy from the inside out.

So going back, intimacy from the inside out is applying internal family systems, IFS, into couples therapy.

So when I'm trying to facilitate courageous communication, it's a long process.

You take a couple and have them in a place where they're so regulated and open.

And by open, I mean heart opening.

There is that curiosity.

There is that compassion.

There is that connectedness.

And the funny thing is, is I'm not working with the speaker.

I'm almost always working with the listener.

Because there is a skill to listening.

Listening is, this is very Gottman, far more difficult than we know it to be.

It is a journey of separating ourselves enough that we feel calm, we feel open to be able to receive.

Which means often setting aside our own agenda.

Which is why context doesn't really matter.

All I'm doing is hearing your world and your inner world if I can, we can get there, you know.

So once the listener is in a place where they are open and able to receive, then going to the speaker.

The speaker then has the ability to say, here's how I feel.

And I'm feeling that.

I need this from you.

And I feel so alone when you aren't saying that.

And then the listener is able to receive and hear it.

Maybe, often, I find, for the first time.

And it takes courage from the speaker.

It takes courage for the listener to be able to set aside the defenses that often show up.

Or the feelings of, like, you're criticizing me.

We have so many inner critics, you guys.

It's really...

It kind of breaks my heart sometimes how difficult it is for people to operate because of all of this internal noise and narratives that get in our own way.

So courageous communication, this ability to...

What feels to me like energetically just opening the room for you to be able to speak your heart and be heard.

That's beautiful.

How do you get a couple to a place where they're regulated enough to hear each other?

Dude, sometimes it takes a long time.

Yeah.

I imagine.

I keep saying, I think, a lot about skill just because listening is a skill.

Speaking from your heart is a skill.

Slowing down is a skill.

Learning how to have curiosity without an agenda, without being, having, you know, some sort of ulterior motive is a skill.

So it takes a long time to get to courageous communication.

Long time, I mean, sometimes a year, sometimes maybe six months, maybe not.

It takes longer than six months usually.

It's a lot of sort of education that goes into how do you get to that regulated place.

On average, those sort of things with internal traumas that we have, very often, my experience with people is that they don't even know what they don't know.

Yeah.

They're not even aware of the water running under their house.

They don't even know.

How do you get them to even be aware that they don't know something?

Those micro movements, like eye rolls and all that, is my clue.

Oh.

I love it.

Somebody will say something and I watch the other person go, they're moving around.

They're sighing there.

And I go, okay, let's stop right there.

What just happened for you?

Ah, they said this.

Okay.

So why did that mean to you?

This, this, and this.

Well, and then eventually it reminded me of that time that my dad used to say this to me.

There we go.

Boom.

Okay.

Let's be with that for a second.

No wonder that was so impactful.

Did you even know, I'll say to the partner, that that was inside of your partner?

No, I had no idea.

Ah, now we understand why this has been conflict for so long.

That's fascinating.

I love that.

I love that you use the word clue, by the way.

It's fantastic.

Because it's what it is.

You're playing investigative detective to the person, to the individual, right?

Always.

Yes.

And mapping the labyrinth of their psyche, you know.

And you use a thread to do that.

It's a clue.

What happens if somebody that you're speaking to is shut off?

What if they're saying, I just didn't like it?

Or what if they say something along the lines of, I didn't do that?

Or how do you respond to that?

Visibly knowing that they did do such thing.

Yeah.

Well, that's also one of my favorites.

Can they all be my favorites?

Because that's another clue to me that this person may not have a wide emotional vocabulary.

It just clues me in like, okay, we got to go back to some basics.

So let's just pause here.

Because this is my catchphrase.

I say often, let's pause here.

Well, what just happened?

You're telling me that didn't happen.

And I saw something happen.

Did you notice your body do this?

No, I didn't even know.

Yeah.

You got upset.

You had a tick.

I don't know what it was.

Oh, no, I didn't know it.

Okay.

So now that I'm telling you, what are you noticing that I said that?

And I feel really frustrated.

All right.

There we are.

Yes.

And now we do the trailhead.

That's a very classic IFS phrase.

We do the trailhead.

And I'm also always learning how the couple learns.

Some people are bottom up, meaning that they have to, they figure it out by how their body is reacting.

Some people are top down.

I've been thinking about this.

Okay, what have you been thinking about?

And then once they think about it, I had this thought.

Okay, what does that mean?

And then I thought about that and it was connected to this.

Okay.

So I really have to learn.

This is the artistry of it to me is you have to learn each person and help not just identify it,

give it words so that they have words for what's happening inside for them and that their partner can witness those words.

So they now know what I call what's under the hood.

You have to know what's under the hood of your partner because we are each, every brain is a fingerprint.

100% different in this world.

100% different.

And now if you mix in being neuro adorable on top of which we all are in some capacity.

Say that again.

You mix in neuro adorable.

You mix in neuro adorable somewhere in the spectrum of this divergence that we all experience.

You need to know how your brain works.

You guys, I say that to everybody.

Please understand yourself.

And if we can remove the stigmatism of ADHD, of being neuro spicy, of geez, I have autism.

My husband, just to name it late diagnosis, autism didn't find out until he was almost, almost 50.

Wow.

And I understand it's a reckoning for a lot of people because you don't know it and it feels derogatory.

I'll put that in air quotes.

It feels derogatory.

And to me it was so, he was like, oh no, am I less of a person to you?

And I said, oh babe, actually you've just expanded who you are.

And now I get to understand that thing when I, you know, wouldn't, you know, the way I do my eggs, it drives you crazy.

Because that's how your brain works.

I thought you were criticizing me.

And what I realized is that was your own discomfort in your own system that was coming out of frustration because of your system, not me.

That's 99% of the time is what happens.

It's seldom got to do with something I've done.

And you got this projection going on in here.

And, and I don't mean that as a bash, like you were projecting out the insecurity that's in here.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well said.

Yes.

And, and to, to pivot on that, that's what I call the U-turn.

Anytime.

Maybe that should be the fourth one.

Okay.

You have to do the U-turn.

So something happens, they do something.

Again, I'm putting it in air quotes.

They do something.

Take a moment and go, why am I upset at what they did?

Well, because they said this.

Okay.

So what about that made me upset?

It felt mean.

Okay.

How did it feel mean?

If you can follow that internally and do that U-turn, then you have the ability to go, oh,

Hey, you know, when you did that, I noticed that that was really activating to me.

I wanted some acknowledgement for what was happening.

Can we try that again?

God, a U-turn.

It's great.

It's a, it sounds very Gottman-y.

I don't know if it is or not, but.

It's IFIO.

Sure.

It's one of those.

Because, you know, Gottman, they do really good with those phrases like bid for connection,

right?

Yes.

There's like a ladder or stairs or something like that.

It's a house.

It's a sound relationship house.

It's very, they're very image inducing, which I'm a symbol person that like really sticks.

Yes.

So U-turn immediately.

It's a great way to stick that into your memory for the next time something takes place.

Yes.

This is so key.

I mean, I find that diagnoses like that are very freeing.

When I came to you and said, I think I have an eating disorder.

And we've talked about that on this show.

And I like needed the validation, the confirmation to name it, as you often say, to name that.

And now I know there's tools out there for me.

I just thought I, everybody felt the way I do.

And I was exhausting myself with the mental load and labor of what they call, I learned

this through our TikTok going viral.

It's called food noise because they're thinking about food all the time.

And that food noise is like gone now because I've used, I've learned tools to work with the

eating disorder that I have.

Same with ADHD.

Also late diagnosed as like so many of my friends, women in their forties, especially finding out

very recently that they, oh, I have ADHD, but I have it in a, as a woman and it manifests

differently sometimes.

Yes.

In women.

Yes, it does.

So without the hyperactivity, we weren't diagnosed in school as being hyperactive.

We had the hyperactivity mentally.

Am I correct?

Right.

So again, we feel it in our brains, but we don't know that we're different.

Sorry.

Please keep going.

Just hit me to a great level.

So look at that.

Like, oh, the teachers are looking at ADHD from a physical standpoint.

It's easy to tell that.

Well, the boy keeps running around.

Well, he's four years old.

Of course he's picking his nose.

He's peeing on slides.

Of course.

That's what happens.

Right.

Nobody's turning to the kid who's just running these thoughts over and over again and say,

how could you even?

I'm so sorry to cut you off, but it just cracked something open for me just now.

So my own work on myself to know myself better helps me bring that to my relationship and say,

okay, I got this thing.

You got to know this is how my brain is working right now.

I'm completely flooded and overwhelmed.

My ADHD also spikes and drops off depending on a variety of factors, including my cycle

and whatever's going on in the world and how much sleep I've had, how much meditation

I've done.

So knowing that, naming that and being able to bring that to you, this isn't yours partner,

but this is mine.

And I need you to just share in this knowledge that helps him see me in the way that he, he

can see me more clearly.

Yep.

Every time, every time.

When I was dating and I was looking for a partner, my main criteria was someone who had

already done their own work who had at least begun and if not was very far along on their

process of understanding themselves.

I knew I had done that for myself and would continue to, and it's a passion of mine.

And to meet someone that was so far along on that and could tell me, these are my shadow

selves.

These are my, this is the young analysis I've done on my, on myself.

I'm like, fantastic.

What a relief.

Cause do you find that when people bring that into the room, their level of work they've

done individually helps the partnership?

Yes.

And yes, everything is a yes.

And of course it depends on how tightly they hold this diagnosis.

Hell yes.

Okay, great.

Sorry.

That's a Buddhist thing.

Also, you let go of Buddhism at some point too, cause that's the goal.

Sorry.

Sorry.

I get really into that stuff.

Sorry.

That's exactly right.

We hold on to anything too tightly, it will get in the way of our ability to be present,

to be in the moment, to be genuinely curious.

If I have somebody walking in there and like, well, my therapist told me that I had this and

this and this, and they're not respecting it.

And they, well, now that just got in the way.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I'm watching you and it's really, it's making me happy.

It's fantastic.

You kindle the fire with the stick that you made, but then you got to put the stick and

toss it in the fire too.

You can't take the boat with you on the island, leave it on the shore.

It got you there.

Yes.

Ted talk done.

Sorry.

Well, I'm with you.

And again, in the name of skill, there's a skill, which I think is part of the practicing

of meditation or whatever practice you do that works for your system of actually knowing

what it means to put that stick down.

And, you know, we all want, everybody wants to stick.

Oh my God.

I was thinking about this.

Like one thing that gets weaponized is people say, well, your therapist isn't very good.

It's so mean.

And the implication is that you haven't changed in a way that I think is correct.

When people say that.

Well, you're forgetting that what therapy is, is learning about yourself and your behaviors

aren't going to change to make your partner happy necessarily.

It's again, going back to the U-turn, it's to understand what's the stick.

Okay.

Now I found the stick.

Now I can name it.

How do I then put it down?

I'm going with your analogy.

You're with me, right?

Absolutely.

Of course.

My whole life is metaphor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bring it on.

Oh, thank goodness.

Me too, actually.

I'm very visual internally.

Everything is, knowing I was coming to the show, I was like, oh God, how many metaphors

am I going to bring out and mix them up?

You are in the house of metaphors.

This is a safe space for metaphors.

Thank goodness.

I feel so seen right now.

The gates are open.

Thank you.

I just did it.

Come on.

You're welcome.

In any case, the skill, the skill of putting the stick down, the skill, literally knowing what

it means to put the stick down, which I might translate into my language with IFIO is how

do you create space in your system?

To be able to name it, let it just give you space so that you can then speak from this place.

I'm on my heart.

In sign language, this means feel.

To describe it, this is putting your middle finger, you put it on your heart and you just

move it up and down on just this little movement.

This means feel.

So being able to feel and you have to have space around what feels to me, the heart space

to be able to do that.

And you have to learn the skill of putting the stick down, putting it all over here.

What's something that they can do now to take a first step into self-discovery?

That's such a hard one.

And I'll tell you why.

It's hard because I don't know what everybody's entry point is, right?

My entry point to therapy was sign language.

Okay.

Yeah.

What are the odds?

There has to be, I think, some amount of being uncomfortable with where they're at.

It's the first step to recognizing, you know what?

This kind of sucks.

And then I'm so biased.

Talk to somebody.

Yeah.

Talk to somebody.

And books are great.

It's just that it doesn't always resonate with everybody's system, especially if somebody

is somewhere in the neuro-adorable, you know, spectrum.

Reading a book can be really difficult and tedious.

And then they criticize themselves.

Oh, I can't even read this book.

I know I should.

Oh gosh, here comes the shoulders.

Everybody wants to should on themselves.

I really wish people would stop shooting on themselves.

Then again, I'm going to take a moment to acknowledge the shoulders.

I have so many clients who acknowledge their shoulders and how we say, oh, I feel a shoulding.

We just give it a little space.

I'm realizing I can't read this book.

I don't have the capacity to sit down.

That's not that something's wrong with me.

It's that it's just not vibing with my system.

So what would it be to talk to somebody?

What would it be to draw?

There is all kinds of avenues now.

Art.

Go go do an art class that actually can be a way of meditation.

There's a million ways into it.

So that was a non-answer to your question.

No, that was a fantastic answer.

It's not like you said to person to meet them where they are, find out what's bugging them

and then allow themselves, give themselves permission to crack open and just play jazz a little

bit.

Yes.

Yeah.

Can you explain to us what internal family systems is?

In a previous episode, we talked about what we've learned in therapy and I have loved learning

about IFS through our work together.

And I did a layman's job of explaining it.

You can feel free to critique my work, but give us the professional version of what internal

family systems is and how our listener can use that for themselves.

It is hard to encapsulate IFS.

I mean, I'm trained in this shit and I find it very difficult to even now explain it.

And Richard Schwartz, who founded internal family systems, it's like, it's a hard sell.

He's been doing it.

He's been doing it for 40 years.

He's been doing it for 40 years because the whole concept is it's predicated on the idea

that we are multiple, which means we are, there are so many facets of our psyche.

It's our ability to recognize all the different facets of ourselves and then learn how to be in

relationship with it.

So you can do that internal investigation and see that there is a part of me, we all do

this in our vernacular.

There's a part of me that really wants to eat this hamburger and I'm a vegetarian.

I don't know why I said hamburger.

It doesn't matter.

There's a part of me that wants to eat this hamburger and there's a part of me that really

knows I should have a salad.

There's that sugar part.

Oh, so recognizing these two parts, I can take a minute to just see them instead of feeling

like what's wrong with me.

Why do I want a hamburger when I should have a salad?

Well, because there's two parts of me that want this and how can I respect that?

And then once you learn how to, and there's a whole protocol about being in relationship

with these different aspects of ourselves.

And once we do, it fits so perfectly into parent education.

Inside of IFS, there's something that's called self-energy, capital S.

Self-energy has the qualities.

There's eight C qualities.

See if I can get them all.

Feeling connected, feeling calm, feeling courageous, feeling creative, feeling calm.

Feeling clarity, feeling creativity, feeling curious.

Did I already say that one?

I don't know how many that was.

Those qualities, those C qualities are ultimately what we come to when we come to this point of

what feels to be, I don't know, to me it always feels like soul.

It's this feeling of being grounded, of feeling present.

It aligns so beautifully with Buddhism in the sense of there is that spaciousness that can occur.

And when that happens, then you have this ability to recognize all the noise, if you will, that's in your head,

all the different parts and aspects of ourselves.

We get stuck when we judge them.

I hate this part of myself.

Okay.

What would it be like, I wonder, to be compassionate for it?

Ah, I could never do that.

I don't want to be compassionate for it.

Okay.

So there's another part of you actually that doesn't like this part.

What if we took a moment to recognize there's a part that doesn't like the part that does what it does?

We are so complex.

I think you even said, Cesar, in one episode, I contain multitudes.

I don't know if you remember that.

There's no way I'd remember it.

Okay.

All good.

I remember it.

Because it impacted me.

Because I said, yes, yes, I so appreciate you said that.

We contain multitudes.

We are so complex.

This is why, you know, we can grieve loss.

Maybe we'll talk about loss at some point, too.

We can grieve loss and feel euphoria simultaneously.

I remember in my birth education classes, we used to say to moms who ended up having a different birth than they anticipated,

usually it ends up in a C-section, barring it being something completely tragic.

Often, if there is a C-section, the nurses would come in and say, you know, mom's like,

oh, I didn't have that natural birth that I wanted.

And the nurses would say, well, at least you have a healthy baby.

That's my least favorite phrase.

Maybe on the planet.

Continue.

Yes.

It so discounts that for a minute, there was a part of me that grieves that I didn't get to have the birth I wanted.

And my God, I have a healthy baby.

Yeah.

At the same time.

At the same time.

So this is essentially what IFS does, is it recognizes all the different facets of what's going on.

And then to take it just a step further, it then begins to characterize these different aspects.

So there's things that are called protectors.

Protectors are two kinds of protectors.

Managers.

These are the ones that are always the forward thinking ones, the ones that like, oh, I should really think about what I'm going to do now.

And I have to, you know, the managers are the ones that are always trying to make sure nothing happens that's bad.

And then we have the firefighters.

And firefighters often come in when we've done something bad.

This is heavy firefighters.

This is heavy firefighters.

This is really extreme firefighters are addiction or, you know, extreme behavior that we know, quote unquote, is wrong.

And we do it anyway.

And then inside of that are what are known in IFS as exiles.

And these are parts of ourselves that had impact from a very early age that carry beliefs, beliefs about themselves.

And often exiles carry things like I am bad.

I am not worthy.

I am stupid.

Sometimes I should die.

They carry very heavy what are called burdens.

And in IFS, our ability to identify these different protectors that often group around something very tender.

And if I can just masterfully weave it into couples therapy for a second.

Yeah.

This is ultimately what I'm trying to do with couples is recognize what is the protector that's here that made you roll your eye?

What is the protector here that makes you feel defensive?

What if for a second we could see that actually you hurt?

It hurt when your partner did that.

That's the tender part we want to tend to.

So you can be with it.

Your partner doesn't take care of it.

You take care of it so that you can say to your partner, I'm holding this really tender part that I'm recognizing God impacted.

And I'd love to talk to you about it.

God, that's beautiful.

That is very beautiful.

You just explained the city of the psyche.

Yes.

Right?

That's well said.

Yeah, there's so much of all of those jobs that we have here.

I fundamentally believe that there are no demons or devils that live within us.

Yes.

The devils that we see are just angels that feel unheard.

Yes.

And if you don't tend to them, they will start to turn into that.

Right?

Yes.

That's sort of Lucifer, if I may say.

And a bunch of other myths.

Lucifer was an angel.

This is what I mean.

This is what I'm saying.

I mean.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

Yes.

If you don't listen to that, it turns into who you are.

Yes.

That's what the metaphor is saying in that story.

That's precisely what I'm saying.

The same goes with Iblis in Islam as well.

The same exact thing.

And then because it's just a city of your psyche, we have to find that capital S self that says you are the mayor of that city.

You don't allow the accountant or the CFO or the fire department to come in and run everything because too much fire department in there is going to cause you anxiety.

That's right.

And probably flooding.

And flooding.

And flooding.

Oh, my God.

Great.

Good call.

Speaking of Gottman Frazier.

That's right.

That was great.

Come on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When I found that out, when that hit me to realize I can kiss this frog that lives within me that turns into the prince.

I'm looking at the beast and I am beauty and I live with that.

He transforms into this prince charming for lack of a metaphor that made me look at every single aspect that is living in me.

And instead of looking to dish it away or extinguish it or make it feel like it's some sort of mountain, I can now just be present with it.

And that is an implication that whatever I need in this world is already in here.

I just have to alchemize it.

I just have to turn it into that gold for my own self.

Can you pause it for a second?

I just want to say, as I'm watching you, I'm watching Foster react to you.

This is the couples therapist in me.

Oh, yeah.

It's coming out.

I was just curious, what came up for you, Foster, as you were hearing him explain his inner world in that moment?

I was just, I can see all of the shadow parts that he's talking about.

Like he's explained it to me before.

So I'm seeing all of the parts of him as he's explaining it and I'm, yeah, I just understand it deeply.

And what happens for you as you understand it?

What do you notice?

I mean, I have incredible respect for him.

Yeah.

It just makes me appreciate him for how he can synthesize it.

And I'm wondering when I hear you say appreciate it and have respect for him, that there is maybe a tenderness there that feels connected.

Yeah.

Feels compassion.

Right.

So even as I was watching the two of you, I can look at the tape later.

If you look at the way you were looking at each other, the way you touched her, the way that you were receiving his energy as you were listening, it was open.

And I'm curious, Cesar, could you feel it from her?

Every time.

Amazing.

Every time.

Yeah.

It never fails.

And it makes me feel more safe to be who I need to be in a world when talking to a third person, a fourth person, a fifth person, a group of people, you name it.

I feel so secure very often with her because for once I don't have to be the gardener.

I don't have to be the sun and water and the soil and the manure and I can just be the flower for a moment because she gives me the garden to be who I need to be.

And I feel it every time.

I'm talking to you right now.

I can feel how she is towards me.

What's that?

You know, I spent so much of my life trying to prove myself, trying to find out who I needed to be because I didn't feel I was black enough, Spanish enough.

I wasn't American enough.

If I wasn't smart enough, I was too short, too skinny, not creative enough.

Every single thing came with some sort of caveat from whoever I shared it with.

And I think that for the very first time in my life, I've met somebody or I've spent time with someone in my life who I have not yet seen all of those examples in her.

I've seen just the opposite from the very beginning.

Somebody who just shows up and just allows me to breathe.

And it's very refreshing.

And it's very beautiful.

Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you.

Thank you for asking.

It's impactful to me, too.

I appreciate you and seeing that tenderness in you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

You mentioned nonviolent communication and me being a Buddhist.

That's a huge thing for me, especially as a person who grew up in a violent household as well, where all I knew was violence.

And then I joined a gang when I was a teenager.

So every conflict resolution was met with violence.

I'm doing everything I can now to work towards the mental reaction of thinking violently.

It still occurs to me every second of every day there's some sort of situation.

I just don't.

I'm like, OK, that's cute.

But that's not it anymore.

Tell me about nonviolent communication.

In nonviolent parenting, which is sort of my specialty inside of NBC, we believe violence is anything that hurts the mind, body or spirit of another human being.

So violence encapsulates many different realms.

It's not just physical.

It's emotional.

It's what happens internally.

It's what we show externally with words.

Isolation is a form of violence in that we've cut off our connection to another human being as a form of punishment, which inside of nonviolent parenting, we say even giving time out to a child is a form of violence, not a form of how we teach, because it's the opposite of teaching.

With nonviolent communication, to look at it sort of very technically, there are four steps inside of NBC.

Observations, feelings, needs, request.

So it's so helpful when I'm first working with especially couples to put it inside of this framework.

I say it's easy, simple.

It's simple.

It's not easy.

Observation, pure observation is one of the most difficult things we can do.

We, by nature, tend to judge things.

We just do.

Boy, your shirt is blue.

I like it.

That's a judgment.

However, your shirt is blue is a pure observation.

So our ability to make a pure observation is the first skill.

And then to be able to state and feelings and my needs.

And then to make an observation without an evaluation of, I expect you're going to do what I'm asking you to do.

We have another tool in nonviolent parenting that's based on the of needs tool.

And it's, it spells of needs.

It's observation, feelings, needs.

Engage.

Empathy.

Develop solutions.

And the engage part is how we regulate the parent in relationship with the child by getting down on their level, by being, making sure that you're regulated so that when you do offer empathy, it's from a true place of connection, not manipulation, which is a huge technique.

A lot of parents use.

Got that right, boy.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

It's a book that Alfie Cohen wrote called Punished by Rewards.

And it's really the spectrum of how we, in essence, violently, and I use that in the term of manipulate, we're trying to impact a kid to do what we want them to do by using rewards.

Yeah.

And this ability to, you know, engage, to have empathy with true empathy, and then the develop solutions, whatever.

I always felt like, sure, you can try to find a solution.

Once a child, once a human feels genuine empathy, sometimes we're just, we're okay, we're done.

So that's NBC.

Thank you.

Does that explain it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Without question.

What's fascinating is that Cesar, who has come to parenthood only in the last year and a half, naturally does so much of that when speaking and engaging with our kids.

You know, there's a benefit to being a part-time parent, right?

And so that you come to situations a little more regulated, but in a way that I'm like, tap in, please, here.

Yeah.

Because I have found myself dysregulated and my own ego is involved in something having to do with the kids that I think probably is like a reflection of me or I don't know what it is.

But at the moment you got this because you, he is so regulated around them.

I recognize all of those things.

I'm observing this in you.

He's down on their level always and speaking in the way that they speak too, in a way of like communicating with a 12-year-old differently than communicating with an 8-year-old because of how they in particular like to hear information.

Yeah.

Anyway, just to acknowledge you because I don't know how you came to that so naturally, but it's really beautiful to watch.

Thank you.

Thank you for saying that.

I appreciate that very much, actually.

It's nice to be validated and be seen.

It's all by design.

It's very intentional.

Every bit of it.

There's no part of me that's like, oh, it feels natural.

No, no, no.

I need to make the decision.

See what sticks.

If it works, stick with it for a while.

If it doesn't work, change it up.

Find the next thing because everything is impermanent.

My way into it typically is what did I want when I was that age?

How did I want to be talked to?

Really just basis and I just want to feel like a human.

So I want to feel like a human.

If I'm standing over the kid because I'm taller than them, what's that going to make them feel like?

Just beat them on their level.

I clearly have the overhand because I've been in this planet longer.

And because I have more of a quote unquote say so, which is preposterous.

Don't get me started on that.

So why not meet them on their level already?

Why not be right where they are?

They're the ones that need the information.

I don't need the information.

Sorry.

I meant to say one sentence.

I know, right?

It's hard.

Sometimes you just really there's a lot to say.

You also hold it all in because you see a million times it doesn't happen.

I'm like, don't do that.

Okay, fine.

I'm going to hold it to myself.

And then I'm sitting here with a therapist.

I'm like, let me tell you all something with my tea that I'm like apparently drunk off of.

Continue.

Well, I just wanted to add that you also had attunement in there and you didn't name it and I wanted to highlight it.

Yes, you're thinking about what you would have wanted as a child and you're attuning to them, which is a crucial component to being in relationship with anybody.

You are seeing, okay, what do they want as a kid?

Did it work?

It didn't work.

Which means to me you're attuned to their reaction to what's happening.

Okay, so I pivot.

Then you have to do a mindful approach.

And that mindfulness, I tell you, it's a powerful tool to use.

Mindfulness to being aware of what's happening inside of you.

I often say to my couples, watch me.

Watch me because I'm doing it all.

It's all here for the taking.

I'm pausing.

I'm attuning.

I'm listening.

I'm, oh, I saw you turn your back.

Were you feeling upset because you needed some connection?

Would you be willing to try again?

I just worked through the needs, the four steps inside of NBC.

I'm doing it constantly.

We are modeling as parents.

Yes.

Constantly.

And that attunement, we want our kids to be attuned.

There was this exercise I would do in parent education where I'd go around the room and I'd say,

how, what qualities do you want your child to have when they're an adult?

What, what would you like to see in them?

God, that's good.

And they, and they had this list, this list of everything.

I'll never forget.

One person said, uh, bilingual.

I was like, okay.

And I said, uh, eco, eco aware.

Okay.

Whatever.

And then after we finished this list, I would show it to everybody.

And I'd say, so Ashley Montague, who was humanitarian said, children especially become the type of human

beings they experience growing up.

So be these things.

You want your kid to be bilingual, be bilingual.

Thank you.

You want your kids to be eco aware, be eco aware.

You want your kids to be able to have conversations with another adult, then talk to them with respect.

Drives me bananas.

People will yell at their kids.

Don't yell.

Yeah.

How is that actually a messaging that they can take in?

Oh, and the other one, if I can say just one more.

Please bring it.

Oh yeah.

This is fun.

I just feel like we are.

Um, that when, when people say to kids, be brave, you're okay.

You're okay.

Be brave.

Oh my Lord.

These kids are having feelings.

And I understand that they might be having a complete meltdown about the fact that you just cut their, the crust off of their, their bread.

And right.

This is a first world problem.

However, for a kid, our ability to validate their experience and simply say, oh my goodness, that really, you did not want that to happen.

That was really hard.

Yeah.

And parents say, I'm so afraid that if I say that they'll just keep going.

Well, yeah, and then, because longitudinal studies that have studied over 2000 toddlers going through what they call the tantrum in air quotes, which I call a flood of feelings, have found a hundred percent of the time when a child is at the end of a flood of feelings, they are sad.

A hundred percent of the time.

And if we can't stay with them through that entire arc of their emotional state, by the time they get to the end, because we're so triggered and upset, then they're abandoned.

Because we don't like it, what they just did.

And when they become sad, there's no one there for them.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Do you know the name of that, those studies?

I don't.

It was so long ago.

You said it really well.

I'm sure somebody could Google that stuff.

Yes.

I'm listening to this show.

I am like, make a note, find that study.

Yeah.

Wow.

2000 toddlers, they put microphones in their onesies and studied them for like a week.

So they were studying the emotionality of what is this meltdown.

A hundred percent of the time it was sadness at the end of everyone.

Do you think that's true for adults too?

Yes, I do.

I believe it heartily.

And when we don't like our partner's emotional state and we cut them off, we have essentially abandoned them.

I don't know that that's anybody's intent.

Oh, I found a number five.

I'm with it.

Intention is different than impact.

It doesn't matter what your intention is actually.

So many times people are like, but that's not what I meant to say.

It doesn't matter.

The impact is where you want to go.

So even if I had the best intentions and it pissed you off, let me take a moment to go, oh shit, you're really upset.

Can I take a moment to just, oh man, that made you upset.

When we can stay with it and then they go, oh yeah, I was really upset.

That was really shitty what you did.

I know, right?

You can say I'm sorry.

I have a whole thing about sorry.

Give it to us.

I'm allergic to I'm sorry.

They have been abused so heartily.

Issue an apology.

Go tell your brother I'm sorry.

Yeah.

And now we've automatized and apparently every time you, I don't even know if automatized a word.

I didn't pull a Cesar just then.

Did you see that?

Nice.

Yeah.

It is now.

That's how I finish my phrases.

It is now.

Right?

You know, we, it has no emotional value anymore.

It feels like.

So I will find every which way to not say I'm sorry.

I will sometimes say I apologize.

I will say absolutely accountability.

I see that impacted you.

That's awful.

I take accountability for that rather than I'm sorry.

It also, to me, builds mindfulness into how I'm communicating with you.

I'm not just trying to brush you off.

I say I'm sorry.

I said I'm sorry.

Why can't we just move on?

Yeah.

And why are you saying sorry then?

For you or for them?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

I have to interrupt here.

Isn't JJ just incredible?

Oh my God.

I'm learning so much from her.

We had such an incredible conversation with JJ that we had to make it into a two-parter.

So stay tuned because next week we will release part two of our conversation with JJ Brake.

And in that episode, JJ actually walks Cesar and I through a real-life conflict that we had

and does a sort of mock couple session with us.

So you're not going to want to miss it.

And if you are interested in talking to JJ, working with her, please visit jjbrake.com

That's JJBRAKE.com.

She is, as you can tell, an incredible, lovely human being.

Also, JJ just launched a really cool new app called Unblend.me.

This app is designed to help you identify and work through your different parts using internal

family systems.

And the kicker is that JJ does all of the voices herself.

So if you've been listening today, you know she's got a very soothing, calming voice.

So it will be such a gift to have that in your pocket.

I hope you'll check it out.

The link will be in the show notes as well.

Thank you so much for listening.

And we'll see you next week for part two.

If this episode spoke to you, take a moment and send it to someone else who might need it.

That's the best way to spread these conversations to the people who need them the most.

And if you want to keep exploring with us, make sure to follow Beauty in the Break wherever

you get your podcasts.

We'll see you next time.

Beauty in the Break is created and hosted by Foster Wilson and Cesar Cardona.

Our executive producer is Glenn Milley.

Original music by Cesar & the Clew.