Beauty in the Break

Why We Fight and How We Forgive (Soup & Stories Pt 1)

• Cesar Cardona & Foster Wilson • Episode 25

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In Part 1 of Soup & Stories, Foster and Cesar gather a circle of creatives and close friends for an intimate, community-style storytelling session. What unfolds is a raw, emotional exploration of grief, family estrangement, marriage transitions, boundaries, forgiveness, and the complicated dynamics of long-term friendships. These stories weave together themes of emotional healing, self-compassion, and personal growth, anchoring the episode firmly in real-life transformation.

Connect with the guests:

Ari Hader

Duane Benjamin 

Jamaal Pittman

Katie Hall

If you enjoyed this episode, take a moment to follow Beauty in the Break on your favorite podcast app and leave a review—it really helps!

Reach out to the show—send an email or voice note to beautyinthebreakpod@gmail.com and be sure to follow on Instagram. 

Cesar Cardona:

Foster Wilson:

Created & Hosted by: Cesar Cardona and Foster Wilson

Executive Producer: Glenn Milley

This episode is brought to you by Arlene Thornton & Associates

Send us a text

You talked about being a black man and suck it up. You got to keep moving.

Grace for me was never an asset. It was always a liability.

And I threw up on my kid's head. And in that instant, I was like, I can't unknow what I know now.

Like I finally put the pieces together.

I was like, maybe I'm not a Buddhist because I'm about to lose it right now.

Hello and welcome to Beauty in the Break. I'm Foster.

And I'm Cesar.

This is the podcast where we explore the moments that break us open and how we find beauty on the other side.

So whatever you're carrying today, you don't have to carry it alone.

We are here with you.

Thanks for being here and enjoy the show.

Welcome back, beloved, to another episode of Beauty in the Break.

Hello, hello, wherever you are in the world. I'm so glad you're here with us right now.

We have a fantastic episode here today that I've been really excited about.

There are more than just two people at this table.

There are friends of ours that are here also having a conversation.

We're going to do an open dialogue here about some of the deepest things that affect us in this world.

These friends that we've chosen here, they aren't just everyday people.

They are all-star friends.

They are all-star thinkers.

They are amazing people in their field of work.

You know, all of this started when Foster had a 40th birthday party and she rented a place in Lake Arrowhead.

And she invited her friends to join.

Now, her time that she rented the place was five days or so.

So the friends would show up for a day, a couple days, the whole trip.

Her dad came out here and we'd make food.

And then we would flip this questionnaire card and it would turn into hour-long dialogue.

It's just so much conversation, right?

We flipped the card, had the conversation, kept going.

It was time for dinner.

So we all stood up, moved to the dinner table.

And then kept the conversation going from there.

And then we said, how can we bring that same sort of environment to a podcast?

Yeah.

And to LA.

And to LA.

And to the rest of our lives.

Because it was such a special weekend full of just flowiness and like deep, deep conversations

that I don't get every day here hustling and bustling in the city.

And so we talked about it and we decided we'll just open up our home and try to have people

over and do this thing.

Not just a party, not mingling and small talk, but really deep conversations.

So I make a big pot of soup or two and everybody brings bread and we break bread together.

And we pull a question or two from a deck and we ask this question of everybody.

And people have been so incredibly vulnerable and open with their hearts.

And it's felt like a really intimate, sacred space.

And it was really successful, I guess.

We did it the first time.

We said, we'll do it again.

And we've been doing it basically every other month for the last year or so.

And it has always been exciting for us to think about bringing it to the show.

Because it's not just this one thing occurring here in our home.

We've had friends take this, move across the country and then start doing this on the East

Coast.

Soup and Stories East Coast Edition.

So we call it Soup and Stories.

Yeah.

There's an East Coast Edition now.

I don't know.

I just think it's a really beautiful community event and something really special.

And I encourage everyone to try it if you want.

Start one up in your neighborhood, in your town.

It's just a beautiful way to share space.

In addition to us inviting friends to our house and then inviting friends to our place

now for this show, we're also inviting you, the listener, to be in this conversation as

well.

As much as we can expand this dialogue, the better.

So you listening here, whatever question we pull, feel free to answer that question for

yourself also.

Or ask your partner that question.

Or your friend.

Or your neighbor.

And so on.

Your kid at the dinner table.

Your kid at the dinner table.

Right, right.

So let's get right into these conversations.

Why don't you tell us who's here, Cesar?

Great.

So the first friend that I want to mention is Duane Benjamin.

Duane Benjamin is a composer, musician, and instructor at UCLA School of Music, known

for his extensive career across multiple genres, including jazz, R&B, and pop.

He's toured with Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye, and The Temptations, and he co-produced with

BTS.

And sitting next to Duane, we have Ari Hader.

Ari is a spiritual explorer, mom, and actor known for playing the first ever non-binary

patient and recurring guest star on Grey's Anatomy.

They host two amazing podcasts that I listen to, Magic and Manifestation for Actors, and

Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist.

Woo!

Now I gotta go watch Grey's Anatomy!

And sitting across from Ari is my friend Jamaal Pittman.

Jamaal is a Robinson Prize Award winning copy editor and manager, screenwriter, and author

of the Copy Editor's Lifestyle Guide.

He is the co-founder of the Annie and Sally Ann Wheeler Memorial Scholarship.

And sitting next to Jamaal is my friend Katie Hall, who describes herself as sunshine with

a side of swear words.

Fueled by caffeine and chaos, she serves F-Yes Energy daily as an actor, wedding planner, and

queer mama of two.

Welcome, welcome.

Welcome, everyone.

So, we have this deck of cards with questions.

We wanted everybody's hands to be on it in some way.

So, Foster shuffled.

We made sure every person here at this table cut the deck.

And then I will flip the card.

So, let's do that now.

Question is, what is the worst argument you've ever been in?

Oh.

Dang.

That is a good one.

You have one?

It's going to you.

You seem to have it.

Probably be with my kids.

Okay.

After my first wife passed.

And I was actually getting ready to marry someone else.

And that was really tough because she passed unexpectedly.

Okay.

Okay.

And I had three kids.

And one of them was a stepchild, which he took it the hardest.

And it just was a really, really bad experience because for whatever reason, you know, I mean,

we were very, very, very close.

And then when she passed, we weren't.

I didn't argue.

I got argued at because I feel like, you know, if I had argued, it would have been even worse.

Yeah.

You know, we still don't speak.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the youngest one has come back into my life.

And we're very close.

And my oldest one is very close.

Very close to my oldest one.

But the one that was his mother passed, we don't talk anymore.

Because there were things said that you can't really come back from.

I can forgive you, but you can never be in that circle of trust because it was so bad.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable letting him back in to that circle with me.

And I had to go through therapy about it.

And it's still painful.

It should be.

You know what I mean?

As a human being, that should be painful.

But the beauty of it was my third son, who was very young at the time.

Actually, he's the one that found his mother.

My current wife went over to the house to help.

And that seemed to be the thing that was the problem.

But they all had relationships already.

Everyone was cool with everybody.

Everybody knew my new wife.

They loved her very much.

And then.

But the middle one really struggled with it.

And then when he struggled, my youngest one was like, well, he didn't want to be a traitor or whatever.

So then he went with my middle son.

And after I had my injury, he came back.

And he's been constantly strong in my life ever since.

My oldest kid was always just like, dad, they've never been through nothing.

Don't worry about it.

All right.

You know.

But it was it was tough because, well, I'm really I'm really letting some stuff out here.

For me, in my first marriage that I had, the person was we were both musicians.

She was a great pianist.

Very, very good friend.

We just weren't compatible as husband and wife.

But being a black father, being from a family that had a black father, it was very important to me to not make my kids part of that statistic.

That like, you know, the father leaves the house and I.

Has he ever reached out to you, your middle son?

By the time he reached out and the way he reached out, I just I wasn't there for it.

My therapist finally said he told me to draw a circle.

He said, how much do you feel like you've put into this to try to bring this back?

I said, probably 80, 85 percent.

And he says, so you've done all you can do.

So maybe the best thing to do is let it go.

Therapy is the bomb, man.

I mean, like it is whether you think you're OK or not, because what a therapist does is give you the tools to deal with situations.

You can't change an engine with the monkey wrench.

So someone said recently, people who need to go to therapy most often don't.

Their victims do.

And that is so key.

Like, oh, my gosh.

So if you are listening to this and you are thinking like, I don't have trauma, I'm fine.

Think about the people in your world who you may have affected.

And ask yourself if they're going to therapy.

And if they are and you think you're fine, maybe you should go, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

Thank you for sharing.

Yes.

Yes.

Thank you both for sharing.

This is really powerful already.

What a what a tough question.

I know.

But I'm so glad we're starting with it.

You said something that really spoke to me about closure and it brought home the point for me that what we envision for closure may not always come to fruition.

I had a friend of mine that I had known for years.

We stopped speaking.

It was a very negative end.

Ten years went by and I wrote this person a very long, very detailed apology and forgiveness letter.

And within hours they responded, but it wasn't nearly as detailed or apologetic as what I had sent.

Right.

Because they had done things, too.

And initially I was a bit angry about it because I was like, why didn't you give me more?

It's been ten years.

Right.

But that was their decision to make and I had to find my own peace.

Right.

In getting whatever closure they were willing to offer me.

Yes.

And closure in that moment wasn't about what that person could give me, but what I could give to myself.

And so I had to decide that I was going to be free from that and not depend on what they had to give me.

Exactly.

I want to say that I like how much you recognize the wounding is still there and necessary and okay.

I was at my grandfather's funeral.

There was one family member that I knew who was standing there by himself on his phone.

Everybody else were talking and commiserating and whatnot.

And I saw you standing there by himself.

So I walked over to him, said, hey, how you doing?

You doing okay?

He said, and I quote, me?

Yeah, I'm better than all these people in here.

It broke my heart because of that mentality of, no, no, I'm good.

I can get over this thing.

And I think our society has made us think that we're supposed to get over things.

Yes.

The image of bravery is always having your chest out and being ready.

Bravery actually is having the fear and the pain and participating in life anyway.

That's actual bravery.

So I'm really appreciative that you said that in that way.

You know, being the oldest one here, sometimes I talk about this with my wife, how machoism was part of being a male.

But really, the strong male is someone that can feel things and express them.

And you can be hurt.

You can be happy.

You can show joy.

You can show all those things because I grew up in a generation where, you know, that wasn't allowed.

And also a race.

Yes.

As well.

Absolutely.

Black men.

Absolutely.

It's like, don't be no punk.

Right.

Don't.

All of it.

Keep it.

Suck it up.

Yep.

Suck it up.

I'll give you something to cry about.

All of those things.

Yes.

All of those things.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

So if you allow yourself to grow and you realize that everybody wants the same thing, it doesn't matter who you are.

But when you get stuck into the way you think things should be without hearing anything else, like open yourself up.

Open yourself up to learn.

It's the best thing ever, man.

I was telling Cesar one time, I'm a kid of the 60s or 70s.

And we went through busing to integrate schools.

Here in L.A., by the way.

Here in L.A.

I still have friends that I would have never met.

It was tough.

It was tough.

There's some things.

There's some, you know, anything changes is always going to be tough.

But I have friends that I've known now for more than 50 years that I would have never met had we not had busing.

And we talk once a week on the phone.

Once you start grouping people and saying these people are that and these people are this and these people.

Everybody has characteristics.

But there's a variety of characteristics in everything.

In everybody.

No matter where you're from.

No matter what you do.

There's a variety of characteristics.

We get in trouble when we start saying, well, these people are this.

Dim right.

You know.

Dim right.

Yeah.

So.

I appreciate it.

Thank you, Duane.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I saw you.

I could feel you pouring right open.

Oh, man.

Serve it.

Serve it.

This is the point of the show.

This is what we're here for.

That question boy was taught.

I was like, I was like.

There were some things that you said.

Oh, I said I'm like hot inside.

Like I'm like a little bit.

Because that question is rough.

Like there's a lot of ways that this could go.

And when you were talking, like I said, I was taking notes because there was things that

you said that are kind of.

If you want me to go, I can kind of just go into this.

So you just said a second ago about the world.

And I think it's really important to remember that just because things have always been done

a certain way doesn't mean that they're right.

And oftentimes what is legal is not the kind choice.

Right.

And so my most difficult argument I've ever had is also what you said.

It was more being argued at.

And it's a constant argument that I have.

And it's a quiet one.

I have a seven-year-old and I have a five-year-old.

And when I became a mom, I became vegan.

This is something that triggers people to no end.

And it's not like I'm, I don't like put it in their face.

It's not something that I yell about.

But if they like my shirt, it says got oat milk.

When people see that, they feel, sometimes they feel attacked.

And it's one of those things that's so tough because I love having conversations.

And I want to be kind and compassionate.

Like I remember one day I was at a dinner and a little kid asked me, because I had all the sides,

like the roasted potatoes and the vegetables, but I didn't have the cow and all the other stuff.

And he said, hey, why are you not eating that?

And the way his mom gave me daggers, like don't you tell my kid the truth, which I never would.

Like it would traumatize a child if I told him the truth and they would never forgive us.

There's a reason that we take children to apple picking farms instead of to slaughterhouses.

And so I would never, right?

I would never tell them the truth.

But the way she looked at me, and that is just a reminder that like she knows that the act of what

we do with animals and dairy is not right.

So this argument that I constantly have when I'm at family gatherings and out is that people will

hear that I'm a vegan and they'll like instantly get defensive and say like, but what this and what

this, what this.

And one day I was trying to like quietly talk to my friend who is so kind, so compassionate.

Like would give the skin off her back.

And she is very much a feminist, right?

And I said, hon, one thing I want you to think about is that like, I call myself a feminist.

You call yourself a feminist.

Everyone in my world would call themselves a feminist because that's a beautiful thing.

The meat and the dairy industry are one of the most anti-feminist things out there because

they are capitalizing on a female's body.

Cows don't make milk because they're cows.

They make milk because they're mothers.

And so we steal their baby and then we take their baby so that we can use their milk for

humans.

And then we kill their baby because there's no use for a male calf in the dairy industry.

But the female calves get raised and then they go through that horrific cycle too.

And so I said that in a very calm way and she got so defensive and so mad at me.

I get it.

Like when you are confronted with something that doesn't align with your thoughts, but maybe

does align with your values, it feels tough to go like, oh fuck, I've been supporting this

thing that I don't like.

And so this is an argument that I've had for six years since becoming a mom.

And then when I was breastfeeding my kid one night, I like put a message on Facebook and

was like, guys, I'm so tired.

He's up for like for the third time tonight, like send me videos.

You know how when you're on YouTube and you're scrolling videos, something pops up and then

you can't really stop it.

And it was like a preview of a dairy industry thing, like for Dominion.

And I threw up on my kid's head.

And in that instant, I was like, I can't unknow what I know now.

Like I finally put the pieces together about dairy.

I always just thought like, oh, they milk them.

They don't hurt them.

But like in that moment, I was like, I'm done.

I can't unlearn what I know now.

And so it's so important to me.

Like I have a tattoo on my arm.

Yeah.

Could you describe it for anybody listening?

It's like kind of a tower, like a pyramid and it's a cow.

And then on top of it, a pig and on top of it, a chicken.

And they're all line drawing.

So I wanted the artist to like start with the needle and never pick up.

And it just says, be kind to every kind.

Oh, that's sweet.

Yeah.

That's really sweet.

Because I really think that like in this world that we're living in, kindness goes so far.

And I just want to urge people to like share that kindness across species and gender and everything.

And it's free.

And it's free.

And it takes two seconds to be kind.

Yes.

And it can make somebody's whole day.

Oh my gosh.

It's nuts.

Yeah.

I want to live my life with like kindness and compassion.

And I think that some people really hate when I bring attention to things that they don't want to know about.

And I think that that goes across the board for so many things in life when you try to educate people.

And so.

People don't like to look in the mirror.

They don't.

They do not like to look in the mirror.

They really don't.

They'll bend, they'll twist, they'll go backwards, they'll do everything they can not to look in the mirror at themselves.

And the thing is, if you want to be vegan, you're not forcing anybody else to be vegan.

And that is one of the things that's the trickiest because people say, even though I'm not, don't force your lifestyle on me.

And I'm like, you are forcing animals to be held in captivity against their will.

Like I'm not forcing you to.

I feel like when I talk about things that I'm passionate about, it can feel like, so everyone listening, I love you all.

Like eat whatever you want to eat.

But it's just one of those things that it gets so tricky when you talk about things that, yeah.

I just want to say, thank you so much for throwing up on your child's head.

Because I feel like the story is that the kids have thrown up on the parents so frequently.

So I really appreciate that you just threw up on that kid's head.

And I bet that that kid like probably didn't mind, honestly.

So like, I'm just, thank you for your service.

You're so welcome.

He has like a little, a little hairless spot now.

No, I'm just kidding.

I get hot inside hearing you say all of those things.

And I am someone who has been vegan for 14 years.

And like, I still feel like tense at the topic of it.

Because when I was not vegan or vegetarian, I had lots of like interactions with people who were vegan, who were incredibly intense.

And it became like a really taboo subject to talk about, quite honestly.

I honestly don't say vegan.

I say plant-based.

And I get it.

And because I don't even want to say it to people.

I don't tell my clients.

I don't tell anyone.

Because it has always met with like defensiveness and discomfort in other people.

Because I think now people know.

People know a lot of what happens in the industry.

But it's really easy to go, like a lot of times when people talk about this and I say something and I go, you should just watch the thing.

You should just watch Dominion or watch What the Health.

Or they go, no, no, no.

Because if I do, I'll stop.

And I'm like, you have your answer.

There's a place called Holy Grail Donuts.

I went in one day and I was like, hey, do you have any vegan options?

And they go like, come here, come here.

And they were like, just so you know, like everything's vegan except for the one with honey.

We just don't say it because people get really triggered.

And that is the same with, there's a cinnamon roll company called Gooey Center Roll.

They're awesome.

And same way.

I was at like a fair and I ordered it.

And I was like, I just want to confirm because it looked really, really delicious.

I was like, this is vegan, right?

And he was like, can you just not?

Can you just say it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the guy behind me in line walked away.

And the guy was like, that's what happens.

Yeah.

He was like, that's vegan.

Fuck that.

And literally walked away.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you're vegan because of the torture.

Yeah.

Not for your health.

Well, so it's multifaceted.

I originally became vegan for the animals, but now the environmental impacts are huge.

And also for my health, you know, red meat is like a class one carcinogen and all these

things.

But for me, the main thing is for the animals, just for compassion for them.

Yeah.

In addition to that, I think that people on average, whether it's vegan, whatever it is, people

identify with their value, with their belief system.

Instead of saying, this is what I'm holding on to for my life or for a week or for whatever.

Yeah.

They just identify with.

If you ask them, who are you?

They go for that.

So the moment that you tell somebody something that you're not that, they feel that so personally.

I stopped drinking and I also seldom, if at all, do I buy from Amazon.

The moment I say I don't buy from Amazon, I get the person telling me why they do.

Yes.

I'm not telling you not to.

Yeah.

Right.

That part.

I'm not telling you not to.

Your journey is your journey.

Yeah.

And no way am I telling you not to.

But they want to justify their actions.

And they work because they've tied those things together.

Right?

And then me knowing that, I have to check my own stuff and say, okay, hang on.

What am I identifying with?

Yeah.

Because sometimes when I do that, when I do that sort of self-identification, it reminds

me of like, okay, but life is life sometimes.

Yeah.

Right?

You need something and tomorrow, okay, just buy it on Amazon.

Okay.

And then move on from that and go back to not doing what you're doing.

Because I don't want to identify with it because I feel like I'm doing the same sort of thing

that somebody's doing back to me.

Yeah.

Not drinking.

Same thing.

If I don't drink, they're like, oh yeah, I only drink once a week or something.

Cool.

Me too.

Great.

Thanks for letting me know.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

What am I supposed to do with that?

Honestly, congratulations to you.

That's fantastic.

But if you told me you're hung over right now, all right.

I remember those days.

Those sucked, man.

I'll meet you right there where you are, you know?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you, Katie.

You're so welcome.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So my worst argument I've ever had happened about a year ago with a friend of mine, a

former friend of mine that I had been friends with for the past 20 years.

This is somebody I thought I would spend the rest of my life getting to know and growing

old with.

But I will say in the 20-year journey, there were some things along the way that gave me pause.

I felt that our friendship was a priority until it wasn't at times.

If there was a new girlfriend or a new other friend or some other initiative that he wanted

to pursue, I was put on the back burner at the expense of everything else.

I brought it up five years ago.

We talked about it.

And I assumed that it was resolved.

He promised to never do it again.

And then five years later, which was last year, another situation came up.

I called it the shiny object.

The new shiny object comes along and he sees it and it's glimmering and it's shiny.

And there's Jamaal in the darkness somewhere.

By the time this happened, I was already going through a bunch of other things in my personal

life.

My job was a bit challenging at the time.

I had some family issues going on.

So I was already kind of teetering toward the edge.

So by the time this friend found his latest shiny object, I couldn't do it anymore.

I lost it.

I said a lot of things that were hurtful.

You did this.

You said that.

You did this.

You did this.

It was always you did, you did, you did.

And he acknowledged every single thing that I called out.

But the one thing he said back to me was, but you're so unforgiving.

You give me no grace.

And I had to sit with that because it's true.

I don't give people grace.

I am unforgiving.

And the reason that I am so unforgiving and don't give grace is because I don't allow

space for that for myself.

I've spent my entire life being hard on myself.

You talked about being a black man and suck it up.

You got to keep moving.

Grace for me was never an asset.

It was always a liability.

And so I had to sit with that.

I really had to sit with all the things that I said to him.

A lot of those things were hurtful.

I'm a Gemini.

So you either get the soft, cuddly side of Jamaal, which you've all seen, or you get that

monster.

That evil twin.

That evil twin.

And he got that monster in the worst possible ways.

Because he got that monster and had gotten that monster a few times over the years.

For him, that was the last straw because it's like, I can't allow you to speak to me this

way anymore.

I can't allow you to accuse me of all these things in the way that you're doing and not

take accountability for your own actions.

I can't take this anymore.

And so as a result of that final shiny object driving this wedge between us, our friendship

ended for the final time.

Officially this year, but I think the last argument last year was like the last straw.

So we had a few conversations this year, but it was never the same.

It was always via text.

It was always surface.

There was always this unresolved thing underneath.

And so in July, I reached out to him and I said, you know, too much has been said.

Too much has been done.

I'm so sorry for the things I said to you.

I received the things that you said to me as far as things I need to work on.

But I think at this point, in order for us to grow and be the best possible versions of

ourselves, we have to end this friendship and go our separate ways.

This is somebody that I loved almost more than my own family.

It's looking like we'll never repair what was broken.

And so that is my worst argument.

Thank you for sharing that.

Do you feel you have forgiven yourself?

I do not.

Okay.

I do not feel I've forgiven myself.

I think I have started the journey of working toward forgiving myself, but I think it's a bit of a ways off.

Yeah.

That's a good thing to know that you know that and you feel that.

You know, Cesar went to my last birthday party.

I had to get up and tell a speech.

And one of the things I said is that I'm old enough to have seen that my steps were laid out for me.

You can't see it at the time that you're in it.

But if you live long enough, you'll see, oh, I went through this because I had to get here.

And I think that's the whole nature of your program with you guys with the beauty and the break.

When you're in it, you can't see you're like, oh, man, I hurt this guy.

Or when I was struggling to become a musician and I'm like, you know, goodness gracious, I can't pay my bills.

I can't do this.

I can look back on almost everything that's happened in my life now and see where it took me somewhere.

Don't lose hope, my friend.

You are in the middle of some story or some lesson.

If you look at your life as a book, you just came out of chapter three.

You know what I'm saying?

You know?

So, yeah.

So I just wanted to, I can feel your pain in that.

But life's always going to be a lesson.

What can I say?

What you're saying is hitting home.

I recently heard someone say when talking about people that they're having problems with in their life, they said, you will get the version of me that you deserve.

And when you said that, like, grace was always a liability, there's so many people that see, like, kindness and softness and stuff like that as, like, a bad thing.

And I think that, like, only we know really truly who we are on the inside.

And I think as long as you, like, put out the kind.

And, like, y'all, you can't see this human here next to me.

But, like, you can just keep, you look at him and you can tell that you're safe.

Like, I feel like if I had a problem, I just met you 30 minutes ago.

And I feel like I have, I'm going through a lot of stuff in my life right now.

I would be fine to lay it all out with you right now.

And I feel like you would receive it with love and support.

And, like, so your friend, I feel sorry for them that they no longer have you in their life.

But that's going to open up space for really rad humans to come in and enter.

Right.

There you go.

I receive every bit of what you both just have to say.

Thank you so much for that.

I can already feel myself getting lighter.

So thank you.

I learned this forgiveness practice recently, which really helped me.

It might be too close for you right now with this person.

Maybe.

I don't know.

If it's useful, take it.

But it's a three-step thing.

The first step is you just feel the feelings for, like, two minutes.

I've coupled this with yoga now because it's a good way to kind of keep my mind focused.

So you feel the feelings.

And then the second step is you basically just invent reasons why these people hurt you.

And it's kind of silly, but it's like the acting teacher that was horrible to me in school.

And maybe his mom was dying.

Maybe I reminded him of his worst enemy.

It's giving them reasons because I realized forgiveness is for you.

Like, you don't need their permission to forgive them, you know?

The second process is giving them reasons.

And the third is thanking them just, like, for what they brought to you.

And it has been, in my head, I was like, I don't have that many people to forgive.

And then I made a list and I was like, oh, no.

Oh, dear.

Oh.

Oh, but I do.

Oh, but I do.

The roommates.

And there's so much more space.

And it's kind of different amounts of sessions for different people.

I've always done this in my yoga class now.

So some people, like, my ex-boyfriend took four or five sessions.

My acting teacher took two.

But I feel the space that they left, like, forgiving them.

And I feel like that acting teacher's voice was in my head when I was doing self-tapes without

even realizing it.

That was, I don't know, 15 years ago that that person was in my life.

They haven't been in my life for 15 years, but they were still affecting me, like, in

these little ways.

It's been really powerful to be like, those people are gone, you know?

Yeah.

No, thank you for sharing that.

Yeah.

And I love the last part about, you know, thank the person for being in your life for

so long.

Because I am trying to be more intentional about living in gratitude.

And I have to do it in all the ways.

And that means thanking the people who were there, whether it's five years, 10 years, 20

years.

They were in my life for a reason.

You never know who you touch.

You never know who you touch.

And they don't know that they've touched you.

I mean, it can be something as simple as somebody paid you a compliment on your book.

And that person went on.

Thank you, Glenn.

And that person went on about their life.

But that will stay with you forever.

Ari, would you like to?

Sure.

I feel like there's been a lot of bad arguments along the way.

But this was the one where I felt like I was on fire afterwards and I was shaking.

So I'm going to use that one.

It was a family member who would not get the COVID vaccine.

And we just had Fiona.

Fiona was like a baby.

I had a very horrible birth with her anyway, which I think was coupled with, I pushed for

21 hours.

Get a C-section if you push for more than three hours is what I learned.

And so I did internal damage.

I got a rectovaginal fistula, which means that I tore a hole between my rectum and my vaginal

wall.

So they had to do like a six-hour surgery like two weeks after I gave birth to my first child

while I was breastfeeding, had to like pump me during surgery.

Also, by the way, literally everybody saw that surgery because it happens to maybe like one

in 4,000 women.

It mostly happens in like third world countries where people would push for that long.

Yeah.

I had random people coming up to me that were like, your surgery was amazing.

And I was like, great.

Just for clarification, they filmed it and then showed it in like a class?

No, no.

What do you mean by this?

They just had people in because it happens to so few women.

So it was, yeah.

It was like me on a table, like legs, but they had to literally cut down the center of my

body and then stitch all of the tissues back together like one by one.

And then it was four months of like, hey, we hope this works.

And if it doesn't work, you will have to get a second surgery.

And if that doesn't work, you'll have a colostomy bag for the rest of your life.

Welcome to being a mom.

And before they started doing the surgery, they just went outside and said, hey, guys,

come check this out.

I have no idea.

I mean, I love my surgeons were two moms.

They were amazing.

Talk about like being part of something bigger than yourself and you don't realize it at the

time.

At the time that this happened to me, the science was like, if this happens to a woman, it won't

happen to a lot of women except for every hater.

You know, if it happens to somebody, wait until they're done breastfeeding and then do

the surgery like a year.

This whole thing sent me into a depression, obviously.

I'm also an actor.

I was like, okay, so like I can't like, so that's over.

Anyway, they were like, this goes against the science, but we are going to do the surgery

now because your mental state is really reliant on this being fixed and your tissues are healthy.

They did the surgery and they have my picture up because since that happened to me, they

have changed the science on it and they now believe that you should do it immediately when

a woman, when it happens to somebody.

It's a literal beauty in the break.

Yeah.

In the break of my vagina.

Thanks for taking that cue.

I appreciate that.

There you go.

Is that going to be like the blurb for the episode?

It's going to be the soundbite at the very beginning.

The break of my vagina.

But where's the beauty?

The break.

Okay.

So that happened.

So that happened.

And then we had Fiona and it was COVID.

She was born in 2021.

We had family members who I'm going to be vague about this for reasons, but they would

not get the vaccine and they wouldn't wear a mask.

And like, they didn't, I mean, both me and my husband were like, no, my infant who is not

able to get the vaccine yet.

And like, we must protect this infant at all costs, obviously.

So he was like, we should just have a conversation with this person and be honest with them.

Which in a way, I feel like having a kid made me a much more confrontational person because

before that I would have been like, oh, hell no, absolutely not.

But yeah, we had this conversation.

It was just so, just so fraught and yelly and toxic.

And it was bad.

It's better now.

I mean, in a way that the beauty in the break is that it's a family member and we have reconciled

and we are close now.

Like we have, you know, we don't touch that.

We'll never talk about that again.

I bet you there's a new respect for you by that person because you stood your ground now

that you went to, went to war with that person.

I mean, it's pretty awesome to see what you've been through, how many people you've touched,

even though you didn't even know it through your own tragedy.

I'm sorry, but there's probably surgeons and doctors and everything.

Like you said to my conversation, your surgery was awesome, you know?

You're in the dentist and it shows the teeth before and after.

Right, right, exactly.

It's got your ears framed up on the wall before and after.

Thank you.

Yeah, no, that's true.

And they did say, I mean, when I had a year follow up with them, they said,

it just happened to another woman and we showed her your picture and we said like, it's going

to be okay.

And it was all okay, by the way.

I didn't have to have another surgery.

I don't have a colostomy bag.

You can't see me, but I don't have a colostomy bag.

It wound up being okay.

So.

Yeah, so I don't know that I have a big blowout fight.

I'm not really the arguing type, but what came to mind for me is that my brother and I

were arguers our entire childhood.

We were debating topics and fighting all verbally.

It was all verbal confrontation.

And my brother is dear to me and I love him very much and we are very close now.

But in our childhood, this is what I remember is we were just fighting all the time.

So my parents were divorced and I was 16, he was 12.

And so I was then at that point driving and driving us back and forth between the houses.

So we now had this alone time in the car where all we did was fight with each other.

We would come in the door and just be fighting about this.

She said this and he said this.

And trying to get our parents to decide who was right about this argument.

They decided that this was all that ever happened.

And so they were going to put a tape recorder in the car while we were driving so that there

was proof and we could listen back at the tapes and who said what actually.

It was not a close relationship.

We just were always in competition and always competing to be right about whatever the thought

was.

But, you know, we went to college in separate places in separate cities and we ended up becoming

very close.

I don't really know how that happened.

But as we matured, of course, we grew out of all of that.

And I love him dearly.

And I don't really know where the amends were.

It didn't happen.

We were kids.

But now I see that in my two children who are almost four years apart like we were.

I don't know if the age gap has anything to do with it.

But my kids are like that as well.

And I know that one day when our oldest is driving, the younger one, there will have to

be tape recorders.

No, I don't really.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't police their arguments.

I don't find that productive.

But I see it.

And I then I do wonder, is there hope for them to be friends someday and love each other?

Because I don't know if they feel that way now at all.

I have hope for that.

But it is the hardest thing about raising them right now is one on one.

Each of them is great when we're all together.

It's quite challenging, as you've seen.

Yeah, I concur with Duane.

They're going to get there.

My older brother Jarvis is six years older than I am.

And we used to argue all the time.

And one of our fights got so bad that I threw a remote control one night and it hit him just

above his eye and blood spurted everywhere.

That craziness.

I was like 11.

He was like 17.

And the older we got, the closer we became.

Because life happens, right?

And you find that you have more in common than the things that divide you.

So I have confidence that both your kids will get there eventually.

Thank you.

You remind me I did one time get so mad at my brother.

I threatened to throw a glass of orange juice in his face.

And he was like, you're never going to do that.

And so then I did.

Throw the orange juice in his face.

I love that you say that because my sister and I, even though we barely argued, we got

along quite well.

One day she wouldn't get up from the seat and I poured milk on her.

Milk and orange juice.

But you didn't throw up on her as a baby.

I did not.

Sorry.

It only happens to me.

For me, I have lived a life of a lot of arguments and a lot of aggression.

I grew up in a house of aggression.

I grew up in a family of aggression.

Then I grew up and got really aggressive in my life.

I was in a very unhealthy relationship.

We were very toxic separately, meeting each other.

We were in a toxic space in our own accord.

And then we got together.

We got toxic in the joys and in the pains.

So everything about it was not healthy.

I'm prefacing to say that in this situation here, she's going to be seen as,

worse, but she wasn't.

I was just as bad at times.

We were in a relationship.

This is right when I became a Buddhist.

So I started checking my own thoughts more.

I started being more calm.

I started recognizing that I don't have to yell.

I started not liking being angry.

She unfortunately didn't.

She wasn't a Buddhist.

She didn't do that work there.

I don't know where she's now.

And hopefully she's found something that's her version of it.

But at that time, she wasn't.

So I would get mocked for being more calm, being more passive,

because I stopped yelling and because I was more calm.

And she only knew me as a yeller.

I think to her, it seemed as like a tactic for me to be like, fine, whatever, fine.

But that wasn't it.

I was just not participating anymore.

But then she'd get louder and louder and louder and louder.

And then I found that anytime she would yell in the apartment

and chase me around the apartment

and at times physically put her hands on me,

if I opened the front door, she would get quiet.

She didn't want anyone else to hear the yelling.

And so I learned that and it just made me prop the door open so often.

Right?

Like, you know, and it got quieter for a while.

And then I realized this is time for me to leave

because the yelling was and the hitting was just getting aggressive.

It was just toxic as can be.

The worst argument was after years of telling her what childhood I grew up in

with the family that I had and the things that had happened to me.

Anytime we'd have an argument, she would turn and tell me,

you're just like those people.

And it really, really like, oh, it stung.

I remember this.

I was in a play.

I was ironing the outfit for the play.

And she's just going and going and going.

And I'm not saying anything.

I go, okay, I understand.

And then she would go, okay, I understand.

Like, she would mock me, like, and really push.

And she would yell, you know, you're not great.

And she would say this stuff.

And it would like, get me, get me, get me.

And I remember I was like, maybe I'm not a Buddhist.

Because I'm about to lose it right now.

And then my mother called me.

Right in that moment, I picked the phone up.

And she knew I was going to the show tonight.

And she says, I want to just call you and let you know that you're really great.

Oh, my God.

And I was like, okay, great.

That was nuts, right?

And I calmed me back down.

And the synchronicity of those two things happening were amazing.

I walk out of that apartment to go to this play that I'm going to be in.

And I was recapping all of the things that had happened in this relationship.

And how tragic it was.

And I said, man, it's a good thing we don't have a kid.

Because he would experience this crap.

And then I remembered, I was the kid who experienced it in my childhood.

The cycle almost continued.

And then it reminded me, well, if I don't have this kid and that cycle is broken,

then I can break the cycle within my own self.

Month or so after that, I moved out.

That's the worst argument that I'd like to share.

Yeah, that was tough, man.

That was really tough.

I do want to say that if ever at some point, if she ever finds this podcast and she's listening to it,

I hope she's in a peaceful place.

I wish her that completely.

Two things I want to add really quickly.

One, I'm so sorry that you experienced that.

And I'm so glad that you came on the other side of it.

And two, Cesar already told the story, but he has the best mom ever.

Her timing is impeccable.

She's known me for about, what, two or three years at this point?

And without going into too much detail, she knew I was going through something without me even telling her.

And she pulled me aside and prayed with and for me over my situation.

And I will always be grateful to her for that.

So thank you for sharing your mom with us.

Hey, beloved.

Thank you so much for listening to part one of this.

There is so much more conversation to be had that's in part two of our episode of Soup and Stories.

That comes out next week.

Some of the things in an episode are about our upgrades in the world.

Things like why you shouldn't give up on your dreams.

Why you should give yourself permission, however, to take up space in the world.

And how to let your story be the inspiration for your work.

So please take a listen.

Check it out.

And if you want to connect with any of our guests from this episode, you can find their information in our show notes.

Thank you.

See you next week.

If this episode spoke to you, take a moment and send it to someone else who might need it.

That's the best way to spread these conversations to the people who need them the most.

And if you want to keep exploring with us, make sure to follow Beauty in the Break wherever you get your podcasts.

We'll see you next time.

Beauty in the Break is created and hosted by Foster Wilson and Cesar Cardona.

Our executive producer is Glenn Milley.

Original music by Cesar + the Clew.

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Cesar Cardona

Host
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Foster Wilson

Host
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Ari Hader

Guest
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Duane Benjamin

Guest
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Jamaal Pittman

Guest
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Katie Hall

Guest