Should You Break Your Own Rules? (And When)

Foster and Cesar sit down for a lighthearted, intimate episode about a surprising parenting breakthrough. Together, they discuss how children actually understand more than we give them credit for, why the question "why?" exhausts parents (and what to do instead), and how treating kids like brilliant humans rather than irrational beings changes the entire dynamic. This episode offers a refreshing perspective on parenting fatigue, the power of contrary actions, and finding those small moments of beauty in the daily grind of raising children. 

In this episode they explore: 

• What happens when you make yourself the "common enemy" in parenting
• The real reason parents hate when kids keep asking "why"
• How one contrary action created an entire day of sibling peace
• The small answer vs. the big answer: What kids actually want to know
• Why siblings don't actually have to be best friends (and that's okay)

If this episode spoke to you, you will love Giving Yourself Flowers where we explore the truth about real self-care. You can also watch the episodes on YouTube.

If you enjoyed this episode, take a moment to follow Beauty in the Break on your favorite podcast app and leave a review—it really helps!

Reach out to the show—send an email or voice note to beautyinthebreakpod@gmail.com and be sure to follow on Instagram and TikTok. 

Cesar Cardona:

• Receive his newsletter Insights That Matter
• Get guided meditation from Cesar on his website 
• Listen to music from Cesar + The Clew on Apple Music and Spotify

Foster Wilson:

• Buy her poetry book Afternoon Abundance
• Learn about her postpartum services
• Receive her newsletter Foster’s Village

Created & Hosted by: Cesar Cardona and Foster Wilson

Executive Producer: Glenn Milley

This episode is brought to you by Jamaal Pittman. You can donate to his scholarship at Wheelerscholarship.com, supporting college enrollment.

Transcript

I didn't know you could do that.

I forget that I can do that.

My brother can do that.

I believe he would be really good at it.

He's really good, actually.

Yeah, I bet.

He gives off the vibe that he'd be good at beatboxing.

I forget also that my brother was a spoken word artist.

So he gives off the vibe of a spoken word artist.

He, in high school, traveled with a team to New York

and performed in New York as a high school student.

And he had this really incredible poem about the Greensboro sit-ins

in the 70s, 60s or 70s.

Do you know about that?

It was a racial justice sit-in.

And he did a spoken word poem from the perspective of multiple people

on different sides of the sit-in.

Damn.

Wow, that's cool.

And it was really cool.

I would have loved to have seen or heard that.

Yeah.

That's pretty dope.

I know.

I wish I could dig up a tape of it.

You know what's interesting?

You know me enough to know how much I don't care for loudness.

He's probably the only exception because his laugh is great.

I love his laugh.

It's so lively and vitalized.

He belts it out.

And it's so joyous.

And he loves to laugh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He appreciates humor in everyone.

And he finds humor in almost everything.

Our youngest is really funny.

And that is a quality that he really enjoys about them.

They are naturally so gifted when it comes to humor.

They know.

They know they're funny too, which is cool.

They check in on it.

They'll say the joke and we'll laugh and I'll like peek over at them real quick and they're

like calculating how funny it was.

They've done that since they were little.

In our body language.

Yeah.

Since they were little.

Receiving laughter and then remembering what it was they just did that made everybody laugh

so they could do it again later.

Yeah.

Copy and paste.

With perfect comedic timing and the understanding of rule of threes.

They just are impeccable with it.

It's dope.

You can see it's a gift.

You can see it's a gift.

Mm-hmm.

Well, welcome back to Beauty and the Break.

We are here again with a intimate personal story of mine.

I have spoken on the show before about how my children really don't get along.

And I know that that's normal and I know that kids fight and I know that my brother and I

fought, speaking of my brother.

And yet it, I think it really bothers me more than I, than maybe it should.

That they don't get along?

That they don't get along.

Okay.

I don't know.

When I became a parent, there's one kid and I found one kid to be really easy.

A lot of my friends talk about this idea of you either find the transition from zero to

one to be so difficult, but then from one child to two children, easy as pie.

Or you find the transition from zero to one to be so easy and the transition from one to

two children to be terrible.

Wow.

And so I am of the ladder where I thought no kids to one kid was easy for me.

When I had my second, I was rocked by the challenge of it.

How I would describe it is that you go from one to three because I have a dynamic with

one child and meeting one child's needs.

And then I have a dynamic with another child with a completely different developmental stage,

having completely different needs at different times.

And then this third dynamic of the two of them between each other.

And so then that added work is keeping them from fighting, keeping them away from each

other, keeping them from disturbing the other person's needs.

I didn't find that my kids ever played together well.

I didn't find that they like entertained each other.

It was the opposite.

Like they created double the work.

I don't know, quadruple at this point.

Right.

So I found it really, really challenging.

Our kids are in two different dynamic ages right now.

They kind of have been there four years apart roughly.

And then they kind of have been for a long time.

So despite all of that, there was this day recently where we were going to a big box store

that will remain unnamed.

And in this big box store, there is a coffee franchise store that will remain unnamed.

And the two of them, for some reason, oh, you know what it was?

They each had just had the holidays and been given gift cards and some money.

And so the two of them are allowed to spend their money pretty much how they want.

They decided that they were going to cook up this whole plan that they were going to go

to this coffee franchise and get drinks.

drinks for each other.

Now, I really do not.

I don't like those blended coffee drinks for my children because they're full of sugar and

it's not something I allow, but I do allow them.

They have their own money to make their own choices about stuff like that.

So they worked together to concoct an entire plan.

One of them had a gift card.

The other one had a gift card to the big box store and they were going to negotiate this

and then I'll owe you this money.

And so I just let it happen and let them kind of like work their little system.

And we got to the store and they went in a line together and they ordered their drinks.

And I kid you not, the two of them got the biggest venti triple mocha latte shenanigans with the

whipped cream and everything in the sprinkles.

And they were so excited and so bonded that they didn't even look back at me.

They just started walking around the store together with their twinning drinks.

At that moment, I realized that me saying yes or me not saying no, I guess really was,

was what it was.

Me not trying to put some kind of boundary about sugar intake or money, how they spent their

money.

And believe me, it was like $18.

I was livid that that much money was spent there inside, but I didn't express it.

They started walking around the store.

The two of them got lost on their own together in the store, looking at makeup, looking at

this, shopping for this, whatever.

They had their money.

They had their independence and their freedom.

I was with my dad.

So he and I went off.

I wasn't worried about them because they were off bonding for like, honestly, the first time

in a really long time that they were able to kind of be in each other's company, not just

be in each other's company without fighting, but actually bonding over this.

Basically over, I was the common enemy of, you know, limitations.

And they worked their system around me and were like, well, I can buy this drink and I

can do it with my own money.

And so I get what I want and they figured it out together.

And the rest of the day, there was no animosity between the two of them.

My older one doesn't like the little one in their room.

And the little one was hanging out in the room, helping them clean their room, hanging out

in their bed.

No issues whatsoever.

It lasted the entire rest of the day, this bonding.

And I really sat with myself and reflected upon what that small choice of not saying no to

this.

Do I want them to have a gigantic sugary drink?

No.

Neither one of them should have that much sugar.

Do they want them to spend that much money?

No.

These are both big triggers for me in my life and something that I try to like keep

a good rein on with both my kids, spending money and what they put in their bodies.

Could you think it's important?

But in this one moment when I just let it go and I just didn't bother with that, to see the

kind of avalanche of positive outcomes that could come out of that was a really big deal in my head.

A really big point of reflection that I wanted to hang on to.

I didn't know this story.

It sounds like you said no to saying no.

Right.

Which is very interesting.

Also, the common enemy part makes sense.

I heard it as a common strategy, a common challenge they could task together for something

that they both want.

And I'm sure it's an amalgamation of all of those things, but the times I've seen them get

along is when they're trying to strategize something that they both really want or they

both really don't want to do.

Yeah.

Which makes me think about life when they're older, when they're not under the same roof

and they don't have as many issues that way.

That they might be able to kind of go at life together.

They might be able to tackle a challenge together with a common goal in mind.

Do you think there's a good chance, there's a better than not chance that they'll end up

just getting along when they get older?

I really don't know.

Me either.

I really don't know.

Do you think they're supposed to get along when they get older?

I probably have my own stuff wrapped up in that.

When I really think about it, my conscious thought is that they don't need to get along.

I don't think they'll be fighting when they're older.

At this point, they don't really show that much care for each other.

People who fight a lot actually also care about each other.

That's a good point.

I could see them just kind of going their separate ways.

Checking in at holidays and I could see that happening.

Which I don't think would make me sad necessarily.

I don't think that they should be friends necessarily.

I think everybody's dynamics are different.

I know that I, when I was a kid, always wished I had a sister also.

And I always looked at other people who had close sister relationships

and wished that that was something that I had.

Nothing to do with my brother.

Not like I didn't want my brother.

Just that I envied that type of relationship that two sisters could have.

That's a type of relationship that I wanted, I guess.

Ironically, as a person who has only gotten along with his sibling,

my sister and I didn't bicker when we were younger.

There was times we disagreed, but we were always linked in.

We always protected each other.

We always got along.

We always played along constantly.

I'm realizing, by the way, this is the opposite of every sibling.

But we always got along.

Ironically, I don't think that they need to get along.

I think they should be kind and nice to each other while we're sharing space.

But that mentality of like, they're my family member.

I have to be with them.

And they're my sibling.

I have to, I don't subscribe to that thought.

They grow up and separate and say, we don't want much to do with each other.

Okay.

I don't think they're required to.

I feel the same way.

I feel the same way.

I think it's nice that you could have a built-in person who kind of has more of a closer to an unconditional love for you because you have shared history.

It will make it easier to be close to your sibling growing up when you were a teenager and adult and all that stuff.

For sure.

And they have common bonds.

They have a little brother that they both love very much.

They have, obviously, the rest of their families.

They have some things that bond them.

But I just think it's a cool opportunity.

And they may not take it.

You said that perfectly.

It's a cool opportunity to have.

My sister and I talk pretty much every day.

And even if it's minimal, we just talk every day.

We share each other stories.

And we talk and laugh.

And we're in the best versions of ourselves right now.

So it's really cool to be in these iterations together.

I couldn't imagine a life without her.

And my mother told us from the jump when my mother and my father were breaking up when I was about four.

So my mom would tell both of us separately and together.

Your sibling is a person you're going to have for the rest of your life.

When we're not here, they're going to be here.

You need to link up with them.

You need to bond with them.

You need to connect with them.

They should be important to you.

And we listened to it.

We really listened to it.

One, because of the trauma of the crap that happened.

But we heard it.

And still to this day, we were just linked up.

We're just so bonded.

And ironically, I know that doesn't have to be the way.

Our kids are very different from each other.

They are very opposite of each other.

And just two personalities would make sense to me.

That opposite, that much of an opposite makes sense to me for them to be like, nah, not my person.

That's fine.

I just don't want to be nasty to each other.

Which sometimes can happen between the two of them.

I think what was more impactful to me, though, about this story was that me taking the contrary action had such an interesting ripple effect.

Which isn't to say that I can take that contrary action every day or all the time.

Because then it's not a contrary action.

Every day, I'm not going to say, yeah, get whatever you want at Frappuccino Land.

I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to allow that to happen every single day.

So then at some point, the contrary action becomes a default action, is what you're saying.

Yeah.

Got it.

Then it becomes a default.

Then it becomes not special.

Yeah, true to that.

And also, isn't there something to be said about when you do say no to something, it actually sticks.

It actually makes it important to the person hearing the no.

So you kind of rebelled against yourself for, I guess, a larger picture.

Yeah.

And some level of them figuring out their stuff.

And then the bonus, the payoff was that they got lost in a store.

And just for me, that I got to have one moment of witnessing what that beautiful little bit could be.

And I'm not mad that it doesn't happen all the time.

Yeah.

Just that one day of that one experience was so delightful to me.

That it occurred, right.

To see that there is that too.

Mm-hmm.

They inhibit each other's freedom is what happens.

That's why they don't get along.

One impacts the other's freedom.

And then that one impacts the other's freedom.

Like, they feel like their needs aren't getting met because of the other person.

Yeah, because they have to give a little bit to the other side.

But in that case, they worked together to achieve something greater for themselves that neither one of them could have gotten on their own.

And that is one example of how that could be in their lives.

That underneath it's not a personality issue or a fundamental hatred for the other.

It's something that's attainable for them to actually get there sometimes depending on what the challenge is.

Right.

And what they need.

That opens up a bigger thing for me because I think that all the variations of what they could be is accessible to them.

They just happen to keep sitting in this rhythm constantly.

But even though that they're so opposite and I feel like, oh, they probably wouldn't.

There's a case where they could be like, they're so opposite.

That's why they get along.

Mm-hmm.

There's also that.

Gosh, how many relationships are like that?

How many friendships are like that?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So that's the thing.

I'm mostly intrigued for you, though, with that.

Mm-hmm.

Kind of breaking through your barrier of the no.

What they expect from you and what you expect from yourself.

Yeah.

Do you remember the reason why you chose in that moment to say, eh, something else instead?

I don't.

I think it's out of principle that they both had their own money and I try to let them make their own choices with their own money.

Right.

I've been down the rabbit hole of, no, you can't get that with your money.

And unless it's obviously something wild.

I'm not going to police how they spend their money.

Yeah.

They might make good choices or poor choices with it, but I'm going to let them make those choices and have those little small failures.

Absolutely, kids.

Welcome to the free market.

So that was your way in.

Okay, cool.

You needed a motivation of something else to kind of let go of the smaller motivation.

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Wow, wow, wow, wow.

And I can hear you saying, why don't you say yes more often?

Because that's something that is kind of feedback you've given me.

Yeah, for sure.

Mainly just because of the amount of times I hear no.

And if I dissect it, sometimes the reason for the no doesn't feel clear, but that's a secondary thing.

I've also noticed that the skill of working with a little individual who just got here, who doesn't understand the contract that we've built in this world, that is made up.

It's not inherent.

It's made up.

It's effective, but it's made up nonetheless.

They don't understand those things.

Mm-hmm.

So introducing them into it requires finesse.

I mean, sometimes you got to let go.

I don't mean just you, the general you, you got to let go of the thing you want.

I could go on a tangent about this stuff, but most of the times we don't even know why we're telling the kid to do something.

That's why we don't like it when they keep asking why.

Because we have just systematically memorized these things.

But usually you say, okay, try it.

And if they mess it up, they say, here we go.

We found the cause and effect for it.

I struggle with this when it comes to food a lot.

Because to say to a child, yeah, if you eat a lot of this, you're not going to feel so good.

Makes sense when it's maybe ice cream or something.

But to sit here and eat an entire jar of pretzels or something that does inherently feel good in their system right now.

How do you explain long-term consequences over and over again?

You know?

Yeah.

Like a balance and me observe.

Well, I've observed your balance of how of food you've intake today.

I struggle with this a lot.

Yeah.

Well, we've done this before a couple of times with one of the kids about teeth brushing.

They don't understand the cause and effect of not brushing your teeth over the long term.

They don't have the ability to look at things long term.

They've been here for a short term.

I usually just reiterate it to them.

This is something that needs to be done.

And life is going to be better for you.

It's better for your health.

It's better for this.

And whatever pushback they give, understandable.

I get why you would.

And you should do this.

You really should.

You really, really should.

Eventually, there'll be something.

They went to the dentist and they were really uncomfortable and they didn't like it.

And then we recap.

Here's what happens with the cause and effect.

This is what happens when we don't do these things.

It just takes more patience.

Very often when I'm talking to the kids, it's, I will pepper in yeses and nos.

This is a time where they can.

No, no, not right now.

Because we need to do this, this, and that.

There's times to work and there's times to play.

Right now it's time to work.

We need you to help us with this, my love.

So typically it's letting them know.

For me, I've noticed.

It's telling them these are some realities that are bigger than what you could experience.

I can say that because I've seen it.

And then when it does happen, say, okay, let's recap.

This is what we got.

Lastly, we also got to remember that sometimes the thing we say is going to happen doesn't happen.

And we can turn to the kid and say, you're right.

You made a good point.

And it validates them.

And instead of us just shutting them down all the time, it validates them.

And they will turn and listen to us even more.

It sounds counterproductive, but it's been very effective for me and the kids.

I will tell them to do anything.

They'll do it.

But it's a long-term thing.

Yeah.

Well, it's really challenging when you're in it 24-7 and the short-term needs are really all they can comprehend.

I'm hungry now.

I want this thing now that has sugar and carbs and whatever.

Not that carbs are bad.

Just that that's the default choice for all children all the time, pretty much.

Even to say, you got to wait until we get home.

But why?

And you want to also get on with your day and do more than just explain this thing that you've explained 9,000 times before.

And it hasn't changed.

That's where I start to just shortcut things and speak quicker and more abruptly and more what you would call rigidly because it's tiresome to keep explaining it.

And they don't retain it.

Yeah.

Well, as a pushback, I would ask, how has that been working?

What are the results of that?

What are the effects of that cause?

Yeah.

I would ask that question.

And then if you realize or you come to a conclusion that it's not as desirable as I thought it would be or wanted, then you got to go back to the drawing board and pivot.

There are times where our kids will just keep asking why, keep asking why.

I personally will.

I'll take the time and say, do you want to know the short answer or do you want to know the big answer?

They always want the big answer.

They always want the big answer.

Can we validate them in that then?

Can we stop assuming they want the short answer?

Can we give them the, can we talk to them like humans rather than just what we think as kids that don't have an understanding of rational or emotional or practical shit?

They're practical.

They're reasonable.

They're smart.

They're brilliant.

They see things beyond what we give them for just because they don't have the words to enunciate it.

Kids are brilliant.

And I talk to them at that level.

I treat them with that level of understanding of, do you want the short answer, the big answer, knowing they're always going to ask the big answer.

So I have my big answer ready.

And then I break it down to them.

And I got to say, most of the time they're like, okay, we got it.

We're done.

Because they got it.

And then they move on.

They move right on.

And then sometimes if they don't, you know, they, I can think of an instance this past weekend.

They were just pushing and pushing and pushing.

And I turned and said, listen, this is what we're asking for you.

A, B, C, and D.

We're asking for you to help us with organizing this part of the room.

And then we're asking you to just give us a hand carrying things.

We need you to do that.

Right now we're all doing our part.

We need you to help as well.

And they didn't want to.

They kept pushing and asking.

Well, I said, I've already explained this.

If you don't want to, you can just sit there.

But you can't get the thing that you're asking for instead because we're working.

And they sat there and they were upset.

Yeah, let them be upset too.

That's a self-regulating thing that they have to process.

Yeah.

And then when they turn back around and they're ready to help or be silly, I'm going to meet

them with their silliness and happiness.

Because it's not a war.

It's just an observation and showing them the reality of cause and effect.

That's usually my mindset for it.

Yeah.

We solve parenting today.

Clearly.

Come to Cesar Cardona with all your parenting.

That is not what you should do whatsoever.

Not at all.

I'm really good at this pocket of stuff.

Yeah.

This really pocket of stuff.

The stuff that you're good at are things that I'm like, I'm going to handle all of that.

Yeah.

Like scheduling, schooling stuff.

Understanding who to call when it's time to pick the kid up.

Because I've asked you every time, who do I call for this number again?

I think I called you the last time and I said, hey, I want to know.

You're like, it's this and this, this and that.

I was like, oh, she already knew what I was calling about.

This is an area that I'm just really good at.

With people in general, I just really get it.

And that's it.

I know my circle of competence outside of that.

I'm like, I don't know it.

I'm going to distribute this to Foster over here.

Well, and as soon as you're with parenting, like as soon as you, you're like, okay, how do I

figure this out?

How do I really get this?

Okay.

I got something.

Oh, this is working better.

Okay.

I got it.

Bam.

They've changed.

They move on.

They're something else.

They're in a new phase.

So I feel like we are in the school of children as opposed to them being in our school.

We're just trying to figure out how to do this parenting thing.

I'm thinking about the parents who've gotten older and they say to their adult kids, you taught

me as much as I taught you.

And that's precious.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

I think about at the end of Six Feet Under when the daughter is going to move away to New

York from Los Angeles and she hugs the mom and says, thank you for giving me life.

And she looks at her daughter and says, you gave me life.

Oh, oh my gosh.

And my mother's never seen that show.

And I just really resonated with the daughter saying that to her.

And I would say that to my mom when I would drop her off to the airport.

And then one day she goes, baby, you gave me life.

Oh.

Oh gosh.

So I think it's like that, right?

Like we're learning as we go.

Yeah.

I'm learning more and more about myself each time I spend with the kids.

Thank you so much for listening today with your, what do you usually say?

Ears and hearts?

I don't know.

Do me an impression.

Do an impression of me.

Do it.

Come on.

You got to do it now.

Thank you for listening today with your ears and your hearts, wherever you are in the world.

I hope you are the most peaceful, the most kind, the most open hearted that you've ever been.

Why are your hands in prayer position?

They can't see you.

See you next time.

That's a good one, but you usually, you do the voice too.

I don't know.

Yeah.

You don't say you don't.

You do it all the time.

And now because the microphone's in front of you, you're having trouble.

Your voice?

Yeah.

Usually you do an impression of me.

It's like with a voice.

Oh yeah.

Siri, turn on the television.

That's the one.

Yeah, doggy.

That's what you say.

They haven't heard that version of me yet.

Oh no.

That's right.

Doggy.

That's right.

Doggy.

Chill out, homeboy.

What's wrong with you, cuz?

Three months in, you were like, I said to your computer, I didn't ask you to do that, playboy.

That was my new favorite.

Computer was acting up.

I was like, I didn't ask you to do that, playboy.

Wrong with you, cuz.

Don't forget, I've just been a Buddhist for the last seven years.

I've been a black man from the South my whole life.

That's true.

To put a good button on this.

We can end this with the best way possible.

Take us out.

I hope you...

I can't do the same time.

No, you can't.

What was the line?

You can't.

Be kind to...

yourself.

That's horrible.

How about you beat boxing

and I could say those words.

All right, ready?

Hope you be kind to yourself.

All right, maybe you should beat box since

I can hold the rhythm.

Be kind to yourself.

Hey, hey, hey.

If this episode spoke to you, take a moment and send it to someone else who might need it.

That's the best way to spread these conversations to the people who need them the most.

And if you want to keep exploring with us, make sure to follow Beauty in the Break wherever

you get your podcasts.

We'll see you next time.

Beauty in the Break is created and hosted by Foster Wilson and Cesar Cardona.

Our executive producer is Glenn Milley.

Original music by Cesar + the Clew.