'I Think I'm Gay…But I’m Married' with Katie Hall

Happy PRIDE 🌈 from all the queer and questioning folks here at Beauty in the Break!! In this episode, Foster and Cesar sit down with actor and wedding planner Katie Hall for a raw, hilarious, and deeply moving conversation about her journey of queer self-discovery. After 16 years with her husband and two kids, Katie has found what it truly means to live authentically. This pride-worthy episode is a must-listen for anyone questioning their sexuality, navigating a late-in-life exploration, or sitting with the courage it takes to choose yourself, even when everything looks fine on paper. Katie's story is the definition of finding beauty in the breaking: a thousand quiet whispers that grew too loud to ignore, and a life that is finally, fully her own.

In this episode they explore:

• Did Tiktok know Katie was gay before she did?
• Why "coming out" isn't the right term for everyone
• What it feels like to be fully in your body for the first time

Katie Hall

• her short film SH(OUT) is in festivals now!
• IG: @theplantbasedboo
• IG: @bestdayeverla_events
• Get her “gayer by the minute” shirt at for the feels co 

Catch Katie on our Soup & Stories Episodes Part 1 and Part 2! You can also watch the episodes on YouTube (and see Katie’s rad shirt!). 

If you enjoyed this episode, take a moment to follow Beauty in the Break on your favorite podcast app and leave a review—it really helps!

Reach out to the show—send an email or voice note to beautyinthebreakpod@gmail.com and be sure to follow on Instagram and TikTok. 

Cesar Cardona:

• Receive his newsletter Insights That Matter
• Get guided meditation from Cesar on his website 
• Listen to music from Cesar + The Clew on Apple Music and Spotify

Foster Wilson:

• Buy her poetry book Afternoon Abundance
• Learn about her postpartum services
• Receive her newsletter Foster’s Village

Created & Hosted by: Cesar Cardona and Foster Wilson

Executive Producer: Glenn Milley

Editor: Bessie Fong

Special Guest: Katie Hall

This episode is brought to you by Arlene Thornton & Associates

Transcript

I'm more than okay. I don't know what the fuck's going on inside me.
I'm very confused. Like, what is this?
I just looked up at him and I was like, I think I'm fucking gay.
Temporary pain is fantastic in service of, like, long-term peace.
I fucking love you.
You.
Welcome to Beauty and the Break.
Here we explore stories of how barriers are broken, both within ourselves and within the world.
I'm Foster Wilson.
And I'm Cesar Cardona.
This is a home for you.
Questioning the rules you inherited and choosing your own path forward.
We are here with you on this messy and courageous journey.
Let's dive in.
Welcome, everyone, to Beauty and the Break.
Get your energy up because we have today one of my favorite people on the planet.
She describes herself as sunshine with a side of swear words,
which you all know because she was on our Soup and Stories episode last year.
And she is back for her own episode.
Katie Hall, actor, wedding planner, queer mama of two, here to tell us everything and to dish.
Welcome to the show.
Also, I forget.
Can I swear?
Of course.
You fucking better.
I was, like, thinking about that on my drive over here.
And I was like, do I have to be PG?
Because that would be fucking awful.
Who are you without it?
I don't know.
I just, like, forget.
Sometimes you have to, like, not swear.
Also, I fucking love you.
And I fucking love you.
And I was thinking about on the way over here, because you said the last time I did a Soup and Stories,
the last time we recorded this, or a different one, I remember I was in a place where I was like,
okay, guys, that was at the point where I was, like, looking for apartments and all that stuff.
And I was like, maybe the next time I see you, I will, like, move out and, like, things will be different.
And I, like, thought about that on the way over here.
And I was like, oh, my God, you guys, it's been, like, five months.
Boom.
And I'm fucking dead.
You know?
And life's great.
And you manifested the shit out of that.
And it's, like, Harvard is fucking great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So, we want to start out with the question of what's beautiful in your world today.
Oh, my gosh.
What is beautiful in my world today?
Well, I got to meet up with a friend who I met at the beginning of this journey, who is now, like,
she kind of was, like, my queer mama, like, godmother.
And I met up with her.
And basically, right before we left, she, like, yelled out of the car, like,
you're a fucking light.
Chase the light.
And I was like, god, I, like, remember.
Like, I sometimes need to remember that, like, having people like that in your life that remind you,
especially when you have, like, a really rough week, is beautiful.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
And she's great.
She's fucking great.
It's so important to have those people in your life that you know are always going to lift you up.
You are one of those people for me.
So, it's cool to have you here.
Aw.
And to share your story with us.
Because, as you know, on the show, we talk about breaking through barriers.
And breaking through barriers in your own personal life and in the world.
And I think your story really is the epitome of both of those things.
Yeah.
It's also breaking through in the world.
Will you tell us a little bit about your journey to, like, how you got to be here and the most authentic version of yourself that could possibly exist today?
Also, P.S.
I just got, like, full leg jitters.
Sometimes I have strokes and I don't know, not legitimate strokes, but, like, I don't know the words.
But I just had, like, full body, like, when you were like, tell me how you got here.
Oh.
Because it's been a really, it's been, like, a really fucking long journey.
So, I was with my kid's dad.
We're still married.
So, my soon-to-be ex-husband, for 16 years, we shared two kids together.
And a few years ago, I had this realization that, like, something wasn't right.
And it was, I mean, this comes from a person who, like, played Division I hockey, was always, like, a tomboy.
Like, there was so many fucking signs that I was queer and I just, like, never clocked it.
And so, a few years ago, I had this, like, quiet, like, I was so internally depressed and I didn't know what to do.
Because I had, like, this, like, happy life.
Like, on paper, everything looked good.
Like, I was in, like, this safe, comfortable marriage, but, like, something was, like, stewing inside of me.
And I would have, like, these, like, whispers every now and then that would just, like, come in and I'd be, like, shut the fuck up.
And they would, like, come back a few days later and I'd be, like, shut up.
And then, like, over time, I just had this, like, moment where it's, like, it's, like, twofold, threefold.
So, I downloaded TikTok, which was the fucking, you guys, that's, I have a friend who wrote a song called TikTok Made Me Gay.
And, like, like, it's not, not true.
But I would, like, have these moments where I was, like, walking down the street with my husband and I would, like, pass by a queer couple and just, like, have, like, a moment of, like, huh.
And I would, like, clock it and be, like, that feels good.
That feels, like, comfortable.
And then, like.
It felt comfortable because you saw yourself in them?
Yes.
Like, I wanted that.
Figuratively.
Yeah.
And, like, again, my relationship with my husband was, like, good and comfortable and safe and loving.
But, like, it, over time, it just didn't, it didn't feel right anymore.
And so, I would see these women together and it would just be, like, a weird, like, like, knowing.
Like, it's hard to describe.
It would just, like, bubble up in me and I would be, like.
And, like, there was moments where I was, like, what is going on?
So, I was, like, on TikTok and, you know, that TikTok, like, the algorithm, like, knows you kind of before you know yourself.
So, I was just, like, scrolling and, like, it was, like, all these queer couples.
And it wasn't even, like, sexy at first.
It was just, like, two women at home making a meal and just, like, being with each other.
And I was, like, I want, I want that.
And then after a while, it started to get into these, like, transition videos, which were, like, basically it was, like, a woman that would start off with, like, you know, like, very, very, like, feminine.
Like, long hair, like, heels, like, red lipstick.
And then, like, the music would drop.
And it would, like, all of a sudden she was, like, mask, like, short hair, like, butch, like, fucking leather jacket.
And it was, like, in my head I thought, like, why am I, what is, like, what is going on inside of my body?
Like, why am I so into this?
Can you describe something you felt about that?
Like, a physical thing.
Like, heat.
Like, I was, like, oh, God.
Like, I was, like, never in my life.
I mean, throughout college, like, I had kissed women and stuff like that when I was, like, drunk or whatever.
But it wasn't, like, never.
I thought the same.
Yeah.
It's not the same.
But I had never thought of a woman or an AFAB person in that way.
Like, I had never been, like, you're hot, right?
So I was watching these videos.
And, like, all these videos, just, like, literally it was just, like, heat in my body.
And I was, like, what is going on?
And I remember one day I was, like, in the bathroom and I was scrolling TikTok.
I was, like, scrolling.
It probably was, like, a two-hour thing.
Like, you know, like, I was, like, scrolling.
It was late at night.
And I remember my husband knocked on the door and was, like, are you okay?
And I was, like, yes.
Like, I'm very, like, I'm more than okay.
I don't know what the fuck's going on inside of me.
I'm very confused.
Like, what is this?
And then there was this, there was this, okay, this is another thing on TikTok.
So there would be these videos where people would be, like, talking, talking, talking, talking.
And be, like, oh, if you came across my page, you're probably queer.
Or, like, questioning yourself.
And if you are, like, I have one question to ask you.
And then they would, like, go do something and come back.
And they'd be, like, oh, you're still here?
You're fucking gay.
And, like, that shit would happen all the time.
And I was, like, what is going on?
And after enough of that, I was, like, oh, okay, maybe I should, like, think about, like, leaning into this, right?
And so that's kind of, like, what made me realize that, like, I wasn't as straight as I always assumed.
Well, two questions.
First of all, I want to just take a moment to educate because not everybody knows what AFAB is.
AFAB is assigned female at birth.
So in the queer community, I mean, there's so many people.
But lesbians, there's non-binary people, there's trans masc.
And so AFAB is assigned female at birth.
Yeah, assigned female at birth.
And also some people are raised, we refer to people as, like, raised as a girl or raised as a woman, however they identify now in their life.
Okay, thank you.
And then if you go back pre your soon-to-be ex-husband, pre all of that, did you crush on women?
Did you find women attractive at all?
This is what's so weird because now, like, you know, like, if you, so compact, the term compact, compulsive heteronormativity.
I don't know that term.
Yes.
So, like, comp het basically just means that, like, we are raised in a world of, like, compulsive heteronormativity.
Like, in movies, you see a man and a woman.
Like, in magazines, a man and a woman.
Like, there's not a lot of, like, representation for queer couples.
And so growing up, it was just like, that's what you do, right?
And so I don't think I ever was like, I'm attracted to them.
I think there were moments where I would see someone, like, I was an athlete.
And I was always playing sports with a lot of people who were gay.
And so I would see people and I think then I was like, oh, you're just, like, badass.
Like, you're fucking cool.
Like, there's an admiration there.
I think so.
Is that what it is?
But I think that if I would have known, like, if I was being raised now, if I was a teenager now, I think probably it would have been more attraction.
Like, knowing what I know and, like, having things be more accepted now, I think that I probably would have been, like, admiring, but also, like, oh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But back in the day, it wasn't, like, which is why I don't use the term coming out.
Like, I literally was never hiding.
I was never hiding anything.
It was just, like, over time, these slow realizations.
There is a couple of things.
One, Foster and I are really locked in here because the two questions I had were the two questions you asked, which is great.
Secondly, I understand that.
I attribute my own self to that.
I can look back on times where there were, like, guys or guys that I really admired that was like, oh, they're cool.
I really liked them.
And, like, I felt like a weird idolization to them in some strange way.
I can look back and say, oh, you had a crush on them.
Yeah.
Oh, you had a crush on them.
You just live in a society where it wasn't explained to you that's what it is.
And you don't want to make sense of it to be that way because of the society that you live in, because people got made fun of for having anything outside of a heterosexual connection or relationship or admiration for somebody.
So you disguise it as, like, he's cool, dude.
Yeah.
Like, and he's cool.
And so the moment you say that, I'm like, oh, I know that feeling.
I'm trying to think, too, because, like, in college, like, there was a teammate that was really, really beautiful.
And, like, she was so strong.
She was so good at hockey.
I played Division I field hockey.
And I remember thinking, like, you're really – she's very pretty.
But it was never like, I want to be here.
I want to, like, be with her.
And I think one of the big reasons why is because, again, if I was being raised now, it would be different.
But, like, back then, I always knew I wanted to be a mom.
So back then, it was like, oh, you marry a man and you guys make a baby and then you have kids.
So in my head, there was never even an option of something else.
I was just always with men and that was the path to, you know, happiness and becoming a mom and all that stuff.
So I think that, like, after having kids, it kind of changed that because I had the kids and I could, like, sit with myself and really, you know, think about what it is that I wanted.
I mean, like I said, like, I kissed women in college and, like, those were always the best kisses.
That should have been a fucking, like, green flag.
But, like, again, I had a friend, my friend Betsy.
We played hockey together and she was gay and she would always be like, just try it.
And I was like, no.
Try it.
There's no fucking way.
There's no way.
And I was one of those people that was like, I could never.
Girl, you can't.
How is she feeling right about that?
Oh, my God.
She is.
She's like, yeah, I'm aware.
I knew it.
She's, like, calling all her friends.
Y'all owe me $10.
I know.
I know.
But it's like she never.
I love it because, like, she, my sister, like, people that, like, had inklings were never like, I told you so.
But they were like, welcome.
Like, welcome to the squad.
But also, you don't say coming out, though.
No.
Right?
I don't like that term personally.
Well, for me, at least.
Because for me, like I said, I never, I was never hiding anything.
It was never like I was closeted.
It was just, like, and there was never, like, this big, like, aha moment.
It was just, like, this slow, honest unraveling.
It was, like, a tiny thousand realizations that, like, built up over time.
And, like, a tiny thousand whispers in my head that, over time, got too loud to ignore.
And so it was not a coming out.
It was a letting in.
Like, I think at one point, I just said, like, I'm going to let in all the pieces of me that I think have been, like, patiently waiting to be seen or heard.
Yeah.
And that's saying letting in as if to say that you, it's still technically inside you, but your truest version of yourself you had perhaps walled off or closed the door to.
And so you doing this is opening that door and letting that realization in.
Yeah, letting the realization in and also letting in more opportunities.
So, like, for my whole life, I had only let in men romantically.
And, like, letting in the idea of, like, a woman or other genders to, like, make me, not to fulfill me.
Like, I can fulfill myself.
But I think just letting in other options.
Because I love so many of my female friends.
And I think that, like, when I think about all of the amazing qualities that women have and how that makes you as another woman feel so, so safe.
Like, why would I not want to explore that in a romantic relationship?
Especially with women.
Yeah.
Jesus Christ.
Have you all seen yourselves?
Girl, women.
Fuck.
Oh, my God.
I know.
It's crazy.
My client the other day, I was with her.
And I said, she has a crush on someone else I know.
And I said, I saw your boo yesterday.
She goes, oh, which one?
I go, which one?
Girl.
She's like, I fall in love with someone every second of the day.
I go, oh, yeah, yeah, me too.
I totally get that.
I was like, have you seen women?
Every second.
I'm like, Jesus Christ.
It's like electric lady land out here.
Well, and the thing that's crazy, too, is that, like, I mean, I love humor.
And so, like, I've dated people in the past that were, like, the funny person and wouldn't be, like, you wouldn't say, like, they're traditionally attractive.
But even with women, like, for me, it's, like, it's the fucking heart.
It's, like, the shared experience.
Like, I think that a lot of people will ask me, like, how did you know?
And, like, you know, that's, we can talk more about that.
But I, it was just, like, a knowing, right?
And so, I think that I had this thought where, like, oh, fuck.
Like, what if my first relationship is awful?
Or what if my first experience is awful?
Like, not that I would go back, like, to being straight.
But just, like, oh, fuck.
Was I, was I correct?
But, like, yes, and.
Because when you date a woman or an AFAB person, like, someone who was also raised in a world that's, like, you know, run by a patriarchy, you have a shared lived experience.
And that shared experience is fucking huge.
Like, there are men that get it, right?
Like, you, you get it.
But, like, having someone that can be, like, yes.
Well, I think it's very difficult to be in relationship, in a deep partnership with someone who has never had the experience of being othered.
And in past relationships, the person that I was with was a cisgendered straight white male.
Like, there is an incredible amount of privilege in that.
And in a lot of cases, people are married to men like that.
And those are great men.
I love that our dynamic is such that you are not a cisgendered straight white man.
At all.
At all.
And so you don't necessarily have my experience of walking around in the world.
But you have a different experience of walking around in the world as someone who's not the typical carrying all the privilege.
You said it more eloquently than I ever could.
But that's the thing is people would always say to me, like, when you are in your first queer relationship, it's going to blow your fucking mind.
Like, the amount of, like, conversation, the amount of communication, the amount of, like, care and aftercare.
And that's true.
Because, like, as women, we are always taught care for people.
Like, at your expense, do for others, right?
And so it is, again, my husband was a really good man, a wonderful person.
But it's just different being with a woman.
I just think that, like, the level of connection is so deep so quickly.
Because, like, women talk.
Like, we have learned to communicate in a way that just feels different.
It feels otherworldly.
Like, it's wild.
Well, let's get to that.
I want to go back to you're in the bathroom.
Yes, okay.
And you're scrolling on TikTok.
And the person who you are married to is, like, asking what's up.
And you're having these realizations, a thousand of them.
Mm-hmm.
At what point was it enough for you to say something?
So December 3rd, 2023.
I remember the day like it was, like, yesterday.
We were in couples therapy.
We were, like, working through things.
And so there was already, like, some cracks, right?
But over, like, those last couple months leading up to December, something inside of me was just, like, like I said, I was, like, I'm a very, like, happy person.
And I was, like, quietly dying inside, which confused the shit out of me.
Because I was, like, you have nothing to be fucking upset about, right?
Like, you have nothing to be upset about.
I joined this group called Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Because I was, like, literally trying to get answers from everyone else except for my own person.
I've been in that group.
Yes.
I know so many people who are still married.
And it's also understandable that sort of self-reflection of, like, what am I doing?
What am I doing?
What am I doing?
Like, a version of you is committed and ready and made those choices.
Of course.
And those are valid choices, too.
You've birthed two amazing kids and you've started a whole family.
Like, that's all valid shit, too.
Yes.
You're digging a little deeper.
So it makes sense that you're holding one thread in the other and saying, like, shit, I got to let one of these things go.
It might be the one that I've spent more time with.
And that hurts.
That's grief.
That's awful.
Yeah.
Like, it's like I spent a third of my life with this person.
Yeah.
I created two wonderful humans with him.
And so, like, the back and forth pull of, like, I'm going to fucking hurt someone.
I'm either going to hurt this person and, like, mess up everything that we've built together or I'm going to hurt myself for the rest of my life.
Right?
So I joined this group and I was, like, reading other people's stories.
And, like, it's really tough because a lot of the stories are awful.
Like, people are, like, financially abused, physically abused.
And part of me was, like, ugh, like, I don't, I shouldn't be here.
Like, I'm not, mine isn't that bad.
And there was this one woman who would always come on when someone like me was, like, questioning things.
And she's, like, honey, there's, there doesn't have to be a reason.
If you feel it in your soul, it's fine.
Like, you can, you can make a choice to leave.
You can make a choice to change or whatever.
It's really hard to, like, talk about this and, like, hold space for this person that I'm married to and separated from and also, like, hold space for myself because I'm very excited that I can, like, live authentically.
But I also know that it is really hurting someone that I care deeply for.
Basically, she was saying, like, you don't have to have a reason.
Like, if your gut is telling you something, follow that thing.
So December 3rd, 2023, we had woken up in the morning.
We were putting up Christmas decorations.
I walked into town to get coffee.
And as I was walking back, it was, like, everything was great, right?
I was, like, fucking dancing.
I had my AirPods in.
Everything was great.
And I opened the door to my apartment.
And he was there.
And he was, like, doing dishes.
And he turned to me.
And, like, his face dropped.
And he said, can we schedule another counseling session?
Like, there's not anything specifically wrong.
But I just get this feeling that you're going to leave.
And I was, like, fuck.
And in my notes app on my phone, I literally had, like, scrolling.
Like, probably the equivalent of, like, 40 pages worth of, like, what I was going to say when I finally got the courage to say.
Like, at the right time, blah, blah, blah.
This was not the right time.
We had no childcare.
The kids were running around.
It was, like, Christmas time, blah, blah, blah.
And in that moment, I was, like, I have to tell him the stuff now, right?
So I just, like, looked up at him.
And I was, like, I think I'm fucking gay.
That's called your fucking moment.
Mm-hmm.
My goodness.
And then so we went into the bedroom.
We sat on the bed.
And we talked for, like, an hour.
Essentially, I just said, like, I don't think that I can keep doing this.
And we had mentioned before.
Like, I think I actually had mentioned in therapy that I was queer.
And he said, what does that mean for us?
And at the time, it didn't mean anything.
I was, like, oh, it's just a part of me.
I realize this.
But, like, we're good.
I don't need to, like, open up the relationship.
We're good.
And then, like, months passed.
And then I realized that that was not the case.
Because, like, it was a part of me that I wanted to explore.
I mean, I could talk about that conversation forever.
But it was, like, an hour long.
And it was really tough.
And basically, I think he said, like, you're my wife.
And I love you.
And, like, I want you to stay here for me and the boys for as long as feels comfortable.
And that was December 3, 2023.
And I did not move out until mid-December 2025.
So we lived together for two years under the same roof, in the same bed.
Which people are like, how the fuck?
But, like, really towards the end, we had become roommates.
And, like, that's not a surprise to anyone.
That's not a surprise to him.
Like, we had gotten so comfortable in our daily routines and, like, the responsibilities of being parents that, like, we were just roommates.
And so it wasn't really hard to share that space without, like, you know, people are like, how did you not?
We just didn't.
But I think what got hard was when dating became a thing.
Because over time, I said, like, if we're going to stay, like, if I'm going to stay here under this roof and, like, we're going to separate, you should start dating.
Like, we should start the idea of, like, dating other people.
And so when he started dating, that was great.
And I wanted him to.
I want him to be happy.
Like, I want all of the best things for him.
But, like, being in a room where, like, his phone is constantly, like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
It's just, like, it fucks your nervous system, right?
And I remember at one point saying, like, can you just, like, turn that off?
I'm just thinking psychologically.
Yes.
That thread, that past thread, the person who built all that, it's that person that that's affecting, it sounds like.
The older version of yourself.
Yeah.
Well, and I think, too, it wasn't, again, like, I wasn't, there wasn't jealousy.
Like, I truly, there was no jealousy at all.
It was just, I knew that he was, like, in communication with this person literally starting at 6 a.m.
6 a.m. throughout the day at night.
So I, like, it was just constant, like, oh, this is happening.
And so, yeah, I just asked, like, can you turn the ringer off?
Or, like, can you, like, take that in the other room?
And at that point, I realized, like, it's time for me to move out.
Can I just say, though, how brave of you, because you still, to that point, had not had any experiences with women.
None.
You chose to leave your marriage and to end that, which I have done that, and that is a excruciating decision to make when you know you're going to, like, upset so many people in your life.
Yeah.
For something that is, like, intangible and unknown.
Because you still could have had the experience of, like, oh, actually, this isn't for me, you know, in the end.
Totally.
Yeah.
That is wild.
It also requires a deep level of intuition and self-awareness that is, maybe you're unable to even speak it out loud.
You just know this thing.
Yeah.
It felt like a really hard leap, but it was just, the knowing was just, it was fucking huge.
You know, it was huge.
And he clearly knew it as well, because he walked in and he said, I want to set up another session.
He knew it.
Because he could feel it.
There have been so many times where I had been in relationships and I wasn't being completely fulfilled and true and whatever, you know.
But I wouldn't say anything.
I was just thinking the stuff.
And, like, sometimes I would not be the best version with that person, you know.
And I would, like, go out and, like, cheat or whatever.
The next time I'd see them or the next morning or whatever, they'd say, I had this dream that you did this, this, and this, and that.
And I'm like, holy shit, how are they picking this up?
Yeah.
Which is not too dissimilar from this sort of, like, psyche, knowing vibe that we all pick up on subconsciously, whether we have it or not.
Because he couldn't point to any signs.
Yeah.
He just knew something.
The same way you knew yours.
Yeah, he knew it.
And, like, he, and I even said when we had that conversation on the bed, like, I was like, is there a part of you that's relieved?
And he, like, shook his head.
Because, like, he knew.
And, like, if you saw me when we got married, which was, you know, we've been together 20 years or 16 years, but married 12 years ago.
When you saw the Katie that got married and the Katie now, like, the transformation is very, like, gayer by the minute, yo.
Gayer by the fucking minute.
So I think that, like, over time he, yeah.
And you can realize when someone is pulling away.
Like, it doesn't matter what the cause is.
Like, you can feel it.
And, like, our bodies truly know before our mind does.
Like, for years my body knew.
And it was manifesting in, like, anxiety and depression before I could put words to it.
Which is why I was, like, literally seeking out everything else.
Like, the should I stay or should I go group.
There was a group called the Late Blooming Lounge that was, like, I hate that term, but, like, there really is.
People call people like me late bloomers.
And, like, I get it.
But I kind of feel like you can't be late to what's meant for you.
That was beautifully said.
Yeah.
You can't be late to what is already meant for you.
Yeah.
You cannot.
I have this, like, poster of that on my wall.
It's by this artist, Soleado, who's amazing.
But there was someone in that group, the Late Blooming Lounge, that I remember I would post a lot.
Like, throughout each kind of section of, like, hey, I think I have this thing.
Hey, I think I'm going to tell him.
Hey, this is the draft of what I'm going to say.
Whatever.
And, like, what do I – and there was this woman who was, like, older.
And I'm sure she was, like, shut the fuck up and just do it.
But she was very, like, gentle with me.
And she was, like, honey, I need you to stop asking directions from people to a place that they haven't been.
You know where you're going.
Just let your heart lead the way.
So when I was also in this should I stay or should I go group, every time I went in there, I was looking for somebody to describe my exact circumstance.
Yes.
And that everybody would say go and that I would get permission.
And when it finally became aware that that's what I was looking for, I was like, oh, that's my answer.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's my answer.
Yeah.
That reminds me of the guest that we had on, Molly.
I said, no one's going to save you.
You got to do that thing for you.
Uh-huh.
We hold so much in a day, in a life, in a week, in a whatever.
The moment that somebody does the thing where they go, bleh, okay, I feel so much better now.
My gosh.
Even if it's the worst stuff.
Even if it's the worst thing of your whole life.
Even if it's scandalous.
You're like, finally, I'm not just carrying this anymore.
It is weird because I had this experience again this weekend at the baseball field.
I knew when I started finding myself asking divorced people, what's this?
What's the custody split?
How do you do this?
Like, I was just prepping.
I was getting all the research, right?
And so now that I'm not on the other side, we're not divorced yet, but now that I'm here,
I have other friends that are married asking me these questions.
And I, like, look them in the face and I, like, gently say, I love you.
I'm here if you need to talk.
And, like, I'll see you in two years.
Like, I'll see you.
Like, I know.
Like, sometimes it just takes time.
It feels like a weird level of, not like freedom, not like I was, like, caged before.
But, like, it feels like I literally had never lived alone, y'all.
Ever.
Like, I was in college.
I was, I had a freshman year roommate.
I played hockey.
She played softball, soccer.
Then I lived in my sorority, then had roommates, then lived with my, like, ex, and then lived
with my husband.
Like.
So you're on your own.
You're living alone with your kids part-time.
Uh-huh.
And now you're dating.
Let's talk about your beginning to actually go out into that world.
Yeah.
So, like you said, I'd never had, like, any sort of anything with a woman, right?
And so when I was, like, oh, how the fuck do I dip my toe in?
Like, I don't want to, like, try for the first time with someone I'm actually into.
Like, but also, like, how do you just do that with, like, a random person?
Like, I'm not in fucking college anymore.
I can't just, like, hook up with someone just because they're attractive.
Like, you need to have, like, a connection.
So I, like, ripped off the Band-Aid, which was, like, wonderful and made me go, like,
oh, okay.
Like, I was, like, freaking the fuck out over nothing, right?
And so then I met someone at, like, a queer bar on Halloween last year.
And we actually just broke up.
So that's not the best.
But what I will say is that it was everything that I thought it would be.
Like, y'all, I seriously think that, like, it's wild to feel so seen.
Supported and, like, held by someone.
And, again, I think it's just that sort of lived experience as, like, AFAB people.
Like, but it was real fucking, like, real quickly, right?
Intense, you're saying.
Really intense, really quickly, yeah.
Intensive connection sense.
Just wild.
And then, like, I didn't want, I met this person and we were just friends to start, right?
Like, we didn't start dating for a couple months.
But they knew my whole thing, that I'd, like, never been with a woman before, that I was, like,
like, how do I do this?
Like, how do I, like, we were talking about all those things.
And so they were, like, privy to that because I was worried that, like, the first person I was with, like, would they be patient?
Would they be, like, oh, you're a fucking late bloomer, blah.
And they were, like, like, if it's a good person who's into you, like, they're not going to care.
They'll be along for the ride, right?
And so I was nervous at first, but, like, it was, this is what's funny.
I made a movie about this last year, about someone coming into their own, right?
And before I had had an experience with a woman, my character, who I wrote, I wrote the movie as well.
At one point, my character said when the woman I had been with the night before asked, like, how was last night?
And I said, my character said, I feel like I was fully in my body.
And that was so true with this person I dated.
Like, I had never really felt, like, fully dropped into things.
And it was just, like, everything felt a little bit different.
Yeah, and it wasn't just the sex.
It was, like, all of the other things, like the communication and all that stuff.
So that was wonderful.
I like to believe that, like, all the things teach us, right?
This literally, we literally just broke up two days ago.
So, like, my, like, nervous system is still, like, a little bit, like, what the fuck's going on?
But I will say, everyone told me, like, your first WLW, which, woman-loving woman.
Well, and that's not the case here because they were non-binary.
But your first queer relationship is going to fuck you up and, like, hit you on your ass, right?
And it, like, definitely did because, like, you get all this stuff really quickly and then you're, like, oh.
And so what I will say is, like, I think a lot of times you think that, like, you think you're in love, right?
And what I realized is, like, I loved a lot about the situation.
I was not in love.
I was in love with the version of myself that I got to be with them.
This person unlocked something inside of me that I didn't know was there.
And so, of course, when that ends, not only are you sad that you lost the person, but you're sad that you lost the version of you that, like, just came back, right?
And so what I'm trying to remind myself through this sadness is that, like, they didn't create that spark.
Like, they just happened to be there when it came back online.
I really am trying to remember that because it's hard in these moments to think, oh, can something get better than that?
It can and it will.
Yeah.
It can and it will.
And what a beautiful first experience.
I think that was true for me as well.
The first person that I was with after my divorce, that person unlocked a lot of things in me that I had never accessed and reminded me of a lot of things.
Like, the way I could show up in relationship with Caesar was because people that I had seen before unlocked all these parts of me that were not accessible to me before.
I think every single relationship is such a learning experience for who we are and who we want to be in relationship and also with ourselves and who we don't want to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I take a lot of, like, I have a lot of care for this person.
And I think I've learned a lot from this.
It felt really expansive.
I think everyone that I date in the future will be better off for, like, the bits and pieces that I got from them.
Okay.
So when you're dating, what's your approach to that?
Okay.
So I feel like it's kind of evolved a little bit.
So I've always been very, like, monogamous.
And so when I started this journey, in my head, I was like, it's going to be casual.
Like, I don't want to, like, jump straight into something.
I want to heal.
I want to, like, be in therapy and all this stuff.
But, like, there is not a fucking casual bone in my body.
And so when I'm dating, like, I'm going to make you fucking dinner.
I'm going to, like, bring you fucking muffins.
Like, I want to, like, hear about your trauma and, like, help you through things and all the things.
But how can you spread your wings and have experiences and date casually when you're not a casual person?
Right.
And so I think that's, like, what I'm really having a hard time with is, like, I want to date people.
I want to have fun and have experiences and not, like, settle down.
But also, like, in order to do that, for me at least, I can't, like, have sex with random people.
I need to have, like, a connection.
And in order to have a connection, you have to, like, learn about them and spend time with them.
And when you spend time with them, you're going to catch feelings, which is great to catch feelings.
Yeah.
But then when you catch feelings, it's not really casual.
It's not casual.
Right?
And it's going to take a lot longer to get to that yes or no.
Yeah.
Is this the person?
Yeah.
The quote-unquote final person.
And so, and that's the thing.
I don't really know if I believe in, like, the, I mean, not believe in the final person.
But, like, I have come to learn that, like, one person is not going to give us everything.
Right?
And so, now it's completely fucked my head to go, like, do I like the idea of polyamory?
Because I love the idea of, like, love being expansive.
But also, like, I think as someone who has been a monogamous person for 44 years, I get jealous.
Right?
Like, that's a fucking thing that happens.
And I don't know in reality if I could actually handle it.
But I like the idea of, like, experiences.
And, like, I feel like I have a lot to catch up on.
And I hate feeling behind.
And that is what feels icky is, like, I know with the right people I'm not going to feel behind.
And I definitely, this first relationship made me feel very much not behind.
Yeah.
But, like, I feel like I want to do all these things.
And so, I don't know how to do that with multiple people.
Right.
Well, take it or leave it, but my very first polyamorous relationship that I had, I came from a background of people.
Like, I saw people cheating when I was growing up.
Yeah.
And, like, in my society, and I guess society as a whole, it was, like, really important to, like, not cheat.
Because it's, like, the worst thing you can do.
And, like, Maury Povich was talking all about it.
And Jerry Springer.
Jerry Springer!
I was on Jerry Springer.
So much.
Are you really?
Yeah.
We got by the line.
Oh, my God.
That's part two.
There is, there's so much height to that.
So, I went into that polyamorous relationship with that in mind.
Uh-huh.
And it took me a little while to be, like, to get to a point of, I wonder if they're sleeping with somebody right now.
Yeah.
And then at some point, you think to yourself, yeah, they are.
That's the point.
See, like, even that.
And then, just, like, that over time, that exercising of it, you're like, all right.
It's like hearing your own voice over time.
Or seeing yourself on camera over time.
You just, you become to see it for the realistic part of it instead of just the insecurity.
Take it or leave it.
It's your process.
Your journey.
I'm taking it.
I want to take all the things.
I just don't, yeah.
I don't know if it's for me, but I want to explore.
Like, I feel like I'm, like, letting go of a lot of shit that, like, I always just took as fact.
And so, I'm trying to, like, open my mind and go, like, oh, there are other relationship structures.
Yeah.
But, yeah, it feels scary because I am someone that, like, jumps in and wants to, like, be all in on one person.
Yeah.
But I also want to, like, be all in on myself.
And so, like, yeah.
So, we talked about who you were.
And we talked about who you've become now.
Who do you see yourself being in the future in your dreams?
Oh, my God.
That's a loaded question.
When you started this journey, you were a wife and a mother of two.
And now you're separated and going to dyke night.
Like, what's one thing you wish in the future you hope for yourself?
Yeah.
One of the things I've realized is that, like, I have met this, like, human again.
When you go through this, you realize that, like, you are a full person.
You get really in the identity of, like, just being a mom and caring for other people.
And so, when you split time with your co-parent, you have so much time to just be, like, what do I want to do?
And so, like, I want to go dancing.
I want to, like, build a queer community.
I want to do creative films that, like, mean shit.
I just want to, like, keep doing the shit that lights my soul on fire.
And, like, I want to do it with people who light me the fuck up.
Because I have realized, especially in this journey, and especially, like, in the past couple days where I, like, feel really sad.
Having people around you to remind you, you're fucking light.
You are light for me.
Let's go out and, like, do big shit.
For the person listening right now who is maybe having a lot of question marks in their life right now.
You want TikTok so much right now.
They're on the getting confirmation.
What do you want to tell that person?
What I would say to that person is that the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.
So when you are confronted with a choice and you are scared to make that choice, whatever is the hard thing to do, do it.
And we avoid hard things all the fucking time, right?
Like, I think that, like, what I am learning is that, like, temporary pain is fantastic in service of, like, long-term peace, right?
So that's what I would say is, like, listen to the flutters inside.
Yeah.
I was thinking about the character you said you wrote and how your psyche already kind of knew that it was going in that direction.
I think about in, like, Sopranos, Michael Imperioli wrote a character, and the character in the episode he wrote about was into Buddhism.
And then, like, eight years later, he becomes a Buddhist.
Yeah.
You know, like, that's already in your psyche.
Yeah.
Right?
And so you kind of did that already.
Yeah.
And then, more importantly, I don't know that you named the movie.
Yeah.
Okay, so it's called Shout.
Shout.
And it's, like, shh, and then in parentheses, out.
Oh.
Because I was, like, quieting that voice, right?
So we actually just got into the Palm Springs International Shorts Fest.
Essentially, I was on set, like, a year and a half ago with this guy that I had worked with quite a few times.
And when he wrapped me from set, he was, like, like, how's life?
How's Travis?
And I was, like, actually.
And I, like, told him the situation.
And he was, like, we should write a movie.
And then a couple days later, he reached out to me and was, like, I can't stop thinking about this.
Let's write a movie.
And so we co-wrote it together.
And we filmed it last year.
And, yeah, it's really wild to, like, look back on it and, like, just see the things, the pieces of dialogue that we wrote that, like, I didn't fucking know.
Like, I had no.
And I told this to the person that I was dating that, like, I wrote that line and it felt so real because I was, like, yeah.
Because you wrote the line before you embodied the experience.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Let it be known that where you are, and anybody listening to this and where you're going, there will be doors where there once were walls.
Yeah.
They will open up for you and always take this sort of leap because look what happened here.
I mean, you got this movie that's in this festival in Palm Springs that you might have not have ended up at if you hadn't just went through these tough breaking moments.
I mean, this is literally a beauty in the break.
Aww.
Actually.
Thank you.
I really want to, like, keep on, like, trying to, like, remember that, though, because it does feel really fucking hard.
Like, I'm not going to pretend that it's easy, especially when you're a parent.
Most of the people that reach out to me, like, in my DMs, like, asking for those, like, the biggest thing is kids.
Like, I don't want to, like, split time with my kids.
I don't want to this.
I don't want to hurt people.
And, like, of course, none of us want to do that.
I think that your partner will understand.
And in the end, this is the important part.
In the end, they will be so fucking thankful that you had the courage to make the move.
Because neither of us were as happy as we should have been.
And at some point, he will realize that.
And those kids will pick up on it.
Yes.
Subconsciously, maybe.
Yeah.
But they'll pick up on it.
Yeah.
And what a gift to your kids that they get to see the authentic version of their mom since they were really little.
Yeah.
They didn't have to wait 20 years until they were in college for you to have this experience.
Yeah.
Really?
They could have it now and through their whole childhood.
They get to see the full version of you.
Yeah.
And that is beautiful.
Yeah.
I met someone recently when I was doing a wedding.
And they were married for like 30 years.
And we were talking about this.
And they said like, ah, my time has passed.
Like, we just live in separate rooms now and whatever.
And like, my parents did that.
Like, so many people's parents do that.
They just like, try to like, tough it out.
That is another piece of advice.
Like, please don't do that.
Like, we have one beautiful, like, magical life.
Why would you try to like, muscle through something when like, if you can just like, make the hard choice and take the leap.
Temporary discomfort for eternal peace.
Right?
So, yeah.
Make the hard choice and like, see what happens.
Thank you, Katie.
Thank you for being here on our show today.
We love you so much.
We fucking love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you back there as well.
I fucking love you.
I fucking love you.
You.
As always, please be kind to yourself.
If this episode spoke to you, take a moment and send it to someone else who might need it.
That's the best way to spread these conversations to the people who need them the most.
And if you want to keep exploring with us, make sure to follow Beauty in the Break wherever you get your podcasts.
We'll see you next time.
Beauty in the Break is created and hosted by Foster Wilson and Cesar Cardona.
Our executive producer is Glenn Milley.
Original music by Cesar + the Clew.